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Post subject: Can you setup a guitar to play nice with any string gauge?
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 4:30 am
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Hi

I'm thinking about putting 12-52 string on my guitar, but I was wondering if it's possible to have an action that plays as well as 10-48. Or is it not possible to have a nice low action with 12s? I like more tension in the strings for my picking hand.

grtz

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Post subject: Re: Can you setup a guitar to play nice with any string gaug
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:26 pm
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The main problem is the G string not fitting into the nut slot. I tried a set of 11's on a Strat once and they just would not sit into the slot. Didn't feel like getting it recut so I went back to 10 gauge.

As long as there's a working truss rod in the neck then a good quality guitar should be able to handle 12's. There are big jazz guitars from the 1930s that happily take those kind of strings without warping - although their actions may be a little higher than you'd want on an electric.

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Post subject: Re: Can you setup a guitar to play nice with any string gaug
Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:14 am
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I believe that SRV used heavy gauge strings (13s?), and I'm sure that the nut slots would have to be filed for the bigger diameter strings. Otherwise, there should be no problem using 12s. :idea:

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Post subject: Re: Can you setup a guitar to play nice with any string gaug
Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:12 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
I believe that SRV used heavy gauge strings (13s?), and I'm sure that the nut slots would have to be filed for the bigger diameter strings. Otherwise, there should be no problem using 12s. :idea:


He mostly used 13s, although it varied. At one point he used as heavy as .018-.072, and sometimes he used as thin as .011s.

i use 12s on one of my Teles, without a problem. With big strong hands, it makes it easier for me to control the bending and harmonics.
On an SG I changed to heavier strings, i had to not only file the nut a bit for the G and B, but also file slightly deeper grooves in the Tune-O-Matic bridge for the wound strings. And my Mexican Tele doesn't like heavy strings at all, and gives fret buzz even with the action way high (it has James Bond strings right now - .007s)


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Post subject: Re: Can you setup a guitar to play nice with any string gaug
Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:14 am
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Fennycaster wrote:
Hi

I'm thinking about putting 12-52 string on my guitar, but I was wondering if it's possible to have an action that plays as well as 10-48. Or is it not possible to have a nice low action with 12s? I like more tension in the strings for my picking hand.

grtz

Hi Fennycaster. In principle the thicker a string is the wider the arc it describes in the middle as it vibrates, so the higher the action will need to be to avoid fret buzz. That's why we generally end up with higher action on the bass strings than the treble ones.

In real life, the difference between 10s and 12s is so small you probably won't notice it, far as action goes.

If you do get a hint of buzz with the heavier strings, well then you likely just need to raise the saddle screws on the affected string(s) a quarter turn at a time and it'll be sorted. In theory this is a situation where a tiny bit more relief would help too. But again in real life you may find that the heavier strings pull the neck into too much front bow, and if anything you might find yourself needing to tighten the trussrod a touch to reduce relief.

Either way, as always when changing string gauge, you need to do a full set up, because at the very least the intonation will have changed and the bridge will be pulling upwards.

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Can you setup a guitar to play nice with any string gaug
Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:58 am
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Ceri wrote:
In principle the thicker a string is the wider the arc it describes in the middle as it vibrates, so the higher the action will need to be to avoid fret buzz.


It is the other way around. With higher string mass (thicker strings), you have to increase the tension to get the same tone. This increased tension leads to less amplitude, not more.

This is partially offset by the strings themselves being thicker, so the string's own radius which is added to the amplitude is larger. But this does not offset the amplitude reduction, so the net effect is that as you change to thicker strings without dropping the tuning, you can reduce the action.

All other things being equal (like string composition), you can filter out other factors from the equations, and arrive at the amplitude being inversely proportional to the string thickness.
If going from a .020" (0.508 mm) string at 5 mm clearance at the 12th fret to a .024 string (0.6096 mm), the new clearance you need will be:

((5 mm + (0.508 mm / 2)) * 0.508 mm / 0.6096 mm) + (0.6096 mm / 2)
... or 4.68 mm

That's a reduction, not an increase.

Quote:
That's why we generally end up with higher action on the bass strings than the treble ones.

No, the reason for that is that the bass strings resonate at a lower frequency, which means they vibrate with a larger amplitude.


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Post subject: Re: Can you setup a guitar to play nice with any string gaug
Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:31 pm
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arth1 wrote:
Ceri wrote:
In principle the thicker a string is the wider the arc it describes in the middle as it vibrates, so the higher the action will need to be to avoid fret buzz.


It is the other way around. With higher string mass (thicker strings), you have to increase the tension to get the same tone. This increased tension leads to less amplitude, not more.

This is partially offset by the strings themselves being thicker, so the string's own radius which is added to the amplitude is larger. But this does not offset the amplitude reduction, so the net effect is that as you change to thicker strings without dropping the tuning, you can reduce the action.

All other things being equal (like string composition), you can filter out other factors from the equations, and arrive at the amplitude being inversely proportional to the string thickness.
If going from a .020" (0.508 mm) string at 5 mm clearance at the 12th fret to a .024 string (0.6096 mm), the new clearance you need will be:

((5 mm + (0.508 mm / 2)) * 0.508 mm / 0.6096 mm) + (0.6096 mm / 2)
... or 4.68 mm

That's a reduction, not an increase.

Quote:
That's why we generally end up with higher action on the bass strings than the treble ones.

No, the reason for that is that the bass strings resonate at a lower frequency, which means they vibrate with a larger amplitude.


So confused.....the last statement contradicts your first statement. If I were to use thicker strings on a guitar wouldn't it also resonate at a lower frequency? Take for instance bass strings, if I were to install them on a guitar(not sure if it's even possible, just a hypothetical) then per your formula, I should be able to drop the action significantly. But because they are thicker and resonate at a lower frequency I would have to increase the action, significantly.

Please explain. :?

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Post subject: Re: Can you setup a guitar to play nice with any string gaug
Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:51 pm
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socal323 wrote:
arth1 wrote:
No, the reason for that is that the bass strings resonate at a lower frequency, which means they vibrate with a larger amplitude.


So confused.....the last statement contradicts your first statement. If I were to use thicker strings on a guitar wouldn't it also resonate at a lower frequency?


No. Or at least not if you want to stay at the same tuning as before.
With a standard E tuning, the frequency of your lowest E string is 82.41 Hz, and the frequency of your highest E string is 329.63 Hz.
That won't change by going to thicker strings. You still need the strings to produce the same frequencies, or the rest of the band will be rather upset.

What changes is that you put more tension on a thicker string to get the correct frequency, and thus get a lower amplitude (distance the string swings while vibrating).

Often people put thicker strings on their guitars for drop tuning. While drop tuning to lower frequencies increases the amplitude, going to thicker strings decreases it. I.e. thicker strings compensate.


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Post subject: Re: Can you setup a guitar to play nice with any string gaug
Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:56 pm
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In my humble experience & opinion:

To make things a lot simpler, the answer to the topic headline is "yes, within reasonable limits".

Most guitars can well handle the gauges that are generally offered for standard tuned guitars - that usually reads .013 set max. There are exceptions; usually cheap guitars with very 'lively' necks.

The thing that most correlates with action is the player's touch. Light picking & strumming gets away with lower action without buzzes, heavy attack players need more clearance.


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