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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:49 am
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Let's just call it nominal scale length, which makes the concept easier. And nominal scale length of a stringed instrument is the measure from the nut to the bridge (= the length of the vibrating part of a string). (The 'nut-to-12th-fret-times-two' is just a measuring tool.) This nominal scale length is then compensated to get the intonation right - the biggest factor here is the string gauge.

There are no intonation problems that would directly correlate to relative scale length, so (assuming an instrument otherwise is OK) the adjustment margin in the bridge saddles is enough. To arth1; basses come typically with 34" & up scales, still they have about the same adjustment margins as guitars...

On the subject of pickup position on the fourth harmonic - which, in other words, is the placement of a 24th fret. So for obvious reasons, all guitars can not have a pickup right on that spot...
And anyway: in all guitars the place of the 4th harmonic changes as soon as you fret a note...
So there is no absolute rule for pickup positions, it's mostly a case of basic starting points and then the designers ear. A Strat and a Tele sound different, even though the neck pickup position is on the 4th harmonic on both. I tend to agree with mr. Frudua, "most probably Fender choose that placement just because he liked that tone"

On compensated nuts: they affect only the open string. As soon as you play a fretted note, the nut is out of the equasion.

Since the OP asked about 22nd fret to bridge saddles distance, here goes:
24” scale, distance from nut to 22nd fret = 6.735”
24.75” scale, distance from nut to 22nd fret = 6.945”
25.5” scale distance from nut to 22nd fret = 7.156”
(Used the StewMac FretCalculator for this.)

Quote:
People will often ask me why I insist on comparing an open string to a fretted 12th rather than a 12th harmonic when checking intonation

I won't ask, because the open string and the 12th fret harmonic (= 1st harmonic) are always the same (octave apart), regardless of if the intonation is right or way off... :lol:
"Way back then" (= before digital tuners) we had to set the intonation by ear. It was easier to compare two same notes (= 12th fret fretted to 12th fret harmonic) than two notes an octave apart (= open string to 12th fret fretted).
Nowadays, it doesn't even have to be open vs 12th fretted; intonation can be set with e.g. 2nd fret note vs 14th fret note (which takes the finger pressure out of the equasion).

In general: one would assume that intonating would be easier with these digituners. But now: it's easy to become obsessed with "dead on" intonation on every fret, which in fact is impossible to obtain...


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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:46 am
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Deluxe Matt wrote:
I realize this is a tuff question, I have not found any information in my searches.



Many informations available. Just few;

Few books available from Dan Erlewine on Stew Mac .

http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Books/Bui ... and_Setup/


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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:37 am
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jmattis wrote:
To arth1; basses come typically with 34" & up scales, still they have about the same adjustment margins as guitars...

Basses also don't have as dissimilar strings as a guitar, and a lower tension per diameter.


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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:05 am
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jmattis wrote:

Quote:
People will often ask me why I insist on comparing an open string to a fretted 12th rather than a 12th harmonic when checking intonation

I won't ask, because the open string and the 12th fret harmonic (= 1st harmonic) are always the same (octave apart), regardless of if the intonation is right or way off
That's not what I meant. There are many people who compare the 1st harmonic to the fretted 12th and some of those insist it is the only true way.

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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:49 am
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BMW-KTM: Sorry, maybe I read your post too literally.

arth1, I don't get what you're pointing at here...
But as said before, all scale lengths intonate according to same basics.
Haven't noticed any dependancy like: "short scale <> short saddle moves, long scale<>long saddle moves".
[In fact, if there's any difference it may(/ought to) be the opposite: Shorter scale guitars often carry thicker strings because of the lower tension, and string diameter correlates to intonation adjustment. Haven't noticed this either.]


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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:54 am
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jmattis wrote:
Let's just call it nominal scale length, which makes the concept easier. And nominal scale length of a stringed instrument is the measure from the nut to the bridge (= the length of the vibrating part of a string). (The 'nut-to-12th-fret-times-two' is just a measuring tool.) This nominal scale length is then compensated to get the intonation right - the biggest factor here is the string gauge.

There are no intonation problems that would directly correlate to relative scale length, so (assuming an instrument otherwise is OK) the adjustment margin in the bridge saddles is enough. To arth1; basses come typically with 34" & up scales, still they have about the same adjustment margins as guitars...

On the subject of pickup position on the fourth harmonic - which, in other words, is the placement of a 24th fret. So for obvious reasons, all guitars can not have a pickup right on that spot...
And anyway: in all guitars the place of the 4th harmonic changes as soon as you fret a note...
So there is no absolute rule for pickup positions, it's mostly a case of basic starting points and then the designers ear. A Strat and a Tele sound different, even though the neck pickup position is on the 4th harmonic on both. I tend to agree with mr. Frudua, "most probably Fender choose that placement just because he liked that tone"

On compensated nuts: they affect only the open string. As soon as you play a fretted note, the nut is out of the equasion.

Since the OP asked about 22nd fret to bridge saddles distance, here goes:
24” scale, distance from nut to 22nd fret = 6.735”
24.75” scale, distance from nut to 22nd fret = 6.945”
25.5” scale distance from nut to 22nd fret = 7.156”
(Used the StewMac FretCalculator for this.)

Quote:
People will often ask me why I insist on comparing an open string to a fretted 12th rather than a 12th harmonic when checking intonation

I won't ask, because the open string and the 12th fret harmonic (= 1st harmonic) are always the same (octave apart), regardless of if the intonation is right or way off... :lol:
"Way back then" (= before digital tuners) we had to set the intonation by ear. It was easier to compare two same notes (= 12th fret fretted to 12th fret harmonic) than two notes an octave apart (= open string to 12th fret fretted).
Nowadays, it doesn't even have to be open vs 12th fretted; intonation can be set with e.g. 2nd fret note vs 14th fret note (which takes the finger pressure out of the equasion).

In general: one would assume that intonating would be easier with these digituners. But now: it's easy to become obsessed with "dead on" intonation on every fret, which in fact is impossible to obtain...



That is incorrect about compensated nuts. Their purpose is to fine tune pitch measurement over the first several frets. This same pitch measurement is what I've been asking about between the different scales and conversion necks.
Of course, I may have confused the issue by referring to pitch measurement as intonation. In which case we may be looking at things in different context.

I have had a terrible sinus infection that is screwing with what little ability I have to articulate things. So if I did confuse the issue, sorry.

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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:24 pm
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Deluxe Matt wrote:
That is incorrect about compensated nuts. Their purpose is to fine tune pitch measurement over the first several frets.

I bolded & underlined that word on purpose :wink:
I'm not saying compensated nuts don't have any effect on intonation. But if that possible effect is only measureable with digituners, I really don't care - my standpoint on intonation is based on functionality.

The "western ear" has "grown accustomed" to certain "compromise intonation" in guitars (& other instruments of the same genre). Quite remarkable examples of musical genius have been recorded before digituners, compensated nuts etc. And: the human ear hasn't developed (at least towards better, if one thinks about vinyl vs CD audio quality).
Maybe in some years time CompNuts will be standard in every new guitar, but I really doubt that.

But I repeat: beware of the Beast of Perfect Intonation on Every Fret. :mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:27 pm
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jmattis wrote:
Deluxe Matt wrote:
That is incorrect about compensated nuts. Their purpose is to fine tune pitch measurement over the first several frets.

I bolded & underlined that word on purpose :wink:
I'm not saying compensated nuts don't have any effect on intonation. But if that possible effect is only measureable with digituners, I really don't care - my standpoint on intonation is based on functionality.

The "western ear" has "grown accustomed" to certain "compromise intonation" in guitars (& other instruments of the same genre). Quite remarkable examples of musical genius have been recorded before digituners, compensated nuts etc. And: the human ear hasn't developed (at least towards better, if one thinks about vinyl vs CD audio quality).
Maybe in some years time CompNuts will be standard in every new guitar, but I really doubt that.

But I repeat: beware of the Beast of Perfect Intonation on Every Fret. :mrgreen:


Well depending on direction I am facing sometime I have a "western ear" and an "eastern ear" at the same time. And when I turn my head they change, sometimes.

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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 2:28 pm
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Yeah, sometimes I think I have such a good ear. Then my wife smacks me in the back of the head and says, "hey, can't you hear me?" :lol:

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