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Post subject: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:42 pm
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Does anyone know if the different scales (25.5, 24.5, etc..) have different intonation characteristics? The reason I ask is, I have noticed conversion necks on the market and wondered if the neck intonation across the entire fret board was consistent. I am curious if there is a difference (even a small one) between the available scales lengths and if there is a difference between normal and conversion necks. Is the scale difference between a Strat and a Les Paul all in the neck? Or is there a difference between the distance from the 22nd fret to the saddle?
Anyway, I know it is a geeky-techy question but I have always been curious.

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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:07 pm
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If I understand your question , I would say ;


Guitar scale is the length between the nut ( starting from fretboard side ) and the bridge ( center )

It is twice the lengt from the nut ( fretboard side ) to the 12 th fret.

If you follow that , you can put any neck on any guitar body ....with some woodworking :lol:


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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:13 pm
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Shorter scale need less string tension.

Strings lengt is shorter so you don't need to turn tuning machine as tight as a longer scale guitar need for same pitch .

Shorter scale guitar like Gibson is easy to play for a beginner , strings are not as tight as a Fender guitar which have longer scale .

Understand ? :D


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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:28 pm
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Shorter scales are harder to control than longer scales with regard to intonation adjustment.

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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:24 pm
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As was mentioned, scale length is half the distance between the nut and bridge. So there are two scale lengths between the nut and bridge. The pickups are then positioned to the 4th harmonic, whose curve would land where the center pup is on a Strat. So I would think a conversion neck would leave the pups at a less than optimum placement.
Of course, once the drummer kicks in, no one would notice. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:04 pm
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Drew365 wrote:
As was mentioned, scale length is half the distance between the nut and bridge. So there are two scale lengths between the nut and bridge. The pickups are then positioned to the 4th harmonic, whose curve would land where the center pup is on a Strat. So I would think a conversion neck would leave the pups at a less than optimum placement.
Of course, once the drummer kicks in, no one would notice. :lol:



Not half distance , twice distance


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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:05 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Shorter scales are harder to control than longer scales with regard to intonation adjustment.



I never saw that in my Gibson and Epiphone


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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:17 pm
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You will find intonation issues even soprano ukuleles. Shorter scale length is not like an immunization against poor intonation. It is easier to remedy on an electric bass than a soprano uke though because of the adjustable bridge on a Fender bass!


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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:27 pm
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Thanks, I understand the concept of intonation and calculating fret placement (did not know that about pickup placement though). My question is about intonation of the entire fretboard not just the 12th fret. I am referring to pitch measurements across the entire scale. For instance if you use a compensated nut, you alter the pitch measurements across the fretboard. I am wondering about the pitch measurements using a standard nut between the different common scale lengths and conversion necks. I realize this is a tuff question, I have not found any information in my searches.

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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:52 pm
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stratele52 wrote:
BMW-KTM wrote:
Shorter scales are harder to control than longer scales with regard to intonation adjustment.



I never saw that in my Gibson and Epiphone

There is a lot of stuff happening when an instrument string vibrates and one of the things that affects how we perceive pitch is harmonics. Harmonics is an important area in the science of sound that is largely misunderstood by the majority of musicians and particularly guitarists for some reason. Without going into a full-on college level physics course the layman is well served to begin to understand that any vibrating string will have overtones and harmonics (they're not the same thing) which are mathematically incorrect and scale length bears on the issue directly. Also at play here is the relationship of string thickness to stiffness, which you have already mentioned but for another reason. It's too complicated to go into here but suffice to say that any string, whether fretted or open has harmonics and overtones that are sharper than the fundamental. I don't mean sharper by a perfect octave or interval, I mean sharper by a mathematically incorrect amount. In every single case, with a modern instrument commonly used today there will be a set of partials which do not mathematically correlate to the fundamental. This is a case where the theoretical does not match the actual. The phenomenon is exacerbated by shorter scale lengths. Perfect intonation on a guitar is almost impossible to achieve with regard to how we hear/percieve pitch versus how a tuner perceives it. Perfect intonation on a guitar is absolutely impossible to achieve with regard to mathematics and theoreticals. Even the Dingwall designs cannot be perfectly intoned.

People will often ask me why I insist on comparing an open string to a fretted 12th rather than a 12th harmonic when checking intonation. It is a very long discussion to eventually arrive at the conclusion that harmonics lie. If anyone is interested in learning more about this there are plenty of educational websites around. Some are design for luthiers and some are design for college/university students. Google is your friend.

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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:00 pm
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Each string has its own scale length, and the stated scale length is the average.
With increased scale length, the intonation adjustment needed is also larger. If you don't have any extra room for adjustment, you definitely don't want to increase the scale length.

The earlier poster here got it exactly wrong. The shorter scale of a Gibson vs a Tele/Strat means the intonation adjustment is shorter, and the discrepancy from the average is smaller. I.e. it is easier to adjust. And the longer the average scale length, the larger the discrepancy from the average for the shortest/longest strings.

The Fender MIM Blacktop Baritone Tele is an example of potential problems - some owners have reported problems getting the intonation adjusted correctly, because there's no extra adjustment room despite the longer scale.


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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:06 pm
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stratele52 wrote:
Drew365 wrote:
As was mentioned, scale length is half the distance between the nut and bridge. So there are two scale lengths between the nut and bridge. The pickups are then positioned to the 4th harmonic, whose curve would land where the center pup is on a Strat. So I would think a conversion neck would leave the pups at a less than optimum placement.
Of course, once the drummer kicks in, no one would notice. :lol:



Not half distance , twice distance


Actually, the scale length is the distance from the nut to the bridge.

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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:07 pm
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arth1 wrote:
... the intonation adjustment is shorter, and the discrepancy from the average is smaller.
Yes, with regard to physical length compared to pitch interval, the adjustment is shorter.

arth1 wrote:
... it is easier to adjust.
No. For any given pitch discrepancy the physical change in position required to correct is shorter and thus harder to precisely dial in.

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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:12 pm
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Good stuff. I can see it's important to make sure we are using the same terminology with the same intent.

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Post subject: Re: Intonation vs. Scale
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:39 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
Actually, the scale length is the distance from the nut to the bridge.

But that length differs for each string - the scale length is an approximate average.


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