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Post subject: wood through the decades - may be boring to some
Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:53 am
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I overheard a conversation between a few carpenters a while ago, one who does some restorations of antiques. They were comparing quality of woods from the early days and modern times. I found it interesting, because they agreed that wood grain was more compact up until the 70's, being that it was taken from much older trees, making the quality of wood superior to today's standards. So do you think that this applies to guitars? I think it would be a big factor in why the guitars of the 50's and 60's are so sought after. Possibly a reason why they sound so much better.


Last edited by liveatsix on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:01 am
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Your friends were right. The government mandated that the lumber companies start reforestation projects back in the late 50's to replentish what they were taking. A lot of those trees are mature enough to be harvested leaving the older trees alone. It is not necessarily the quality of the wood as the maturity of the wood. Luthiers and cabinant makers make deals with the lumber companies to get first pick of the more mature and finer grades of wood.


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Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:11 am
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I would've never known. I just thought they were sought after because they were vintage. So do you think the new 50's, 60's, and 70's players strats have better wood than any other MIM strat?

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Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:12 am
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I didn't know that. Thanks.


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Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:21 am
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hottrod wrote:
I would've never known. I just thought they were sought after because they were vintage. So do you think the new 50's, 60's, and 70's players strats have better wood than any other MIM strat?


In all honesty I couldn't answer that. The probability is that Fender USA keeps several grades of wood around. The Mexican plant may or may not be supplied by the Corona plant probably not. It would however have to meet Fender's quality standards.


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Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:33 am
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There is a show that is on the Discovery channel called Things
Are Tuffer In Alaska and last week they showed lumberman
in Alaska takibg dowb trees some of which they said were
4 to 5 hundred years old and when they got them to the mill
they were being marked for instuments. One company they
were stamping on them was Steinway and the guy was saying
most of the lumber goes to various instrument companies for
guitars and other instruments. They showed logs that were
ten thousand dollars a piece. That is also why you have these
divers bring logs up from the bottom up in the Great Lakes that
went to the bottom a hundreds years ago. The coldwater on the
bottom has kept them good and they some are worth tens of thousands
of dollars because of there size and age and type.

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Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:23 pm
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I don't know what you mean
by compact... During the 90's
I used to build selfbows... The
thing that made the growth rings
closer together,,, which made the
wood more dense,,, was the
weather...

If the winters were really bad,,, as
in colder than normal,,, then the
growth rings were closer together...

Is that what you meant by compact ???
If not,,, excuse the interuption...

================================

<><> Rasputan2 <><>


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Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:00 pm
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Rasputan2 wrote:
I don't know what you mean
by compact... During the 90's
I used to build selfbows... The
thing that made the growth rings
closer together,,, which made the
wood more dense,,, was the
weather...

If the winters were really bad,,, as
in colder than normal,,, then the
growth rings were closer together...

Is that what you meant by compact ???
If not,,, excuse the interuption...

================================

<><> Rasputan2 <><>


I think he ment the grain of the wood was closer together.

In theory (as I understand it) wood that has a close grain is more consistant in how close the wood's cells are to each other; this means the vibration in the wood is less (or more)affected by IN- consistantcies in the wood therfore the better sound?
Wood from the stumps is well sought after by guitar makers; especially the independents. They say it's denser....
I believe that close grain tops on acoustics is more pretty than the wide spaced grain; if you do a comparasin I think you'll find that the high end guitars (more expensive) have close grain all around and mid range guitars have close grain tops for sure and maybe the sides and back as well.
How and how well the wood is dried has a WHOLE LOT to do with all this I'm sure.


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Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:08 pm
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I may be wrong,,, but I thought
the growth rings were closer
together because of colder
winters... Which meant that the
tree didn't grow as much that
year...

As opposed to milder winters when
the tree grew more,,, as in wider
spaced growth rings...

==========================

<><> Rasputan2 <><>


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Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:07 pm
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Trees that are grown in re-forested areas tend not to have as good
of grain because they have been grown in a managed fashion
so that they grow a much quicker rate which means not as tight of
wood grain. Old growth trees will have had many years of slow growing
and and compatition from other trees causing the to grow at a much
slower rate and making the density of the wood better. Some of
the best timber that I cut when I was a youngster were from trees
that took a few hundred years to get to be 4ft. across were as the
same tree type of tree can be grown in a manage forest in 75 years.
The slower Maple grows the denser the growth rings will be and we all
have seen Maple in people yards that grow to be 3 ft. across in
like 50 years because it gets sun light and is not in the shadows of
other trees. Well I am going back to the days of walking the woods
with the forest agent marking trees to take.

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Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:37 pm
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dna9656 wrote:
Rasputan2 wrote:
I don't know what you mean
by compact... During the 90's
I used to build selfbows... The
thing that made the growth rings
closer together,,, which made the
wood more dense,,, was the
weather...

If the winters were really bad,,, as
in colder than normal,,, then the
growth rings were closer together...

Is that what you meant by compact ???
If not,,, excuse the interuption...

================================

<><> Rasputan2 <><>


I think he ment the grain of the wood was closer together.

In theory (as I understand it) wood that has a close grain is more consistant in how close the wood's cells are to each other; this means the vibration in the wood is less (or more)affected by IN- consistantcies in the wood therfore the better sound?
Wood from the stumps is well sought after by guitar makers; especially the independents. They say it's denser....
I believe that close grain tops on acoustics is more pretty than the wide spaced grain; if you do a comparasin I think you'll find that the high end guitars (more expensive) have close grain all around and mid range guitars have close grain tops for sure and maybe the sides and back as well.
How and how well the wood is dried has a WHOLE LOT to do with all this I'm sure.



DNA is exactly right. If you look at the prices of Martins that date before WWII you will notice that Martins made between 1936 through 1949 are significantly higher that ones produced after then. This is due to a couple of factors.

Number one is that during that time in Brazil, it was extremely cold during the winters and the summers were seasonably low. This caused the Brazilian rosewood to grow with compacted cells and therefore the resonance of the wood was far superior. Secondly, Brazilian rosewood is now an endangered species. It can only be used if it was harvested before the listing as endangered.


Bill


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Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:46 pm
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oldpat wrote:
The probability is that Fender USA keeps several grades of wood around. The Mexican plant may or may not be supplied by the Corona plant probably not. It would however have to meet Fender's quality standards.


The MIM bodies have more pieces glued up (and transparent finishes use veneer):

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Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:25 pm
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Just a side note. Bigger trees (circumference) means more wood because most folks that build instruments want quarter sawn wood. To get quarter sawn wood it has to be cut a certain way which means you dont get that much quarter sawn wood from the tree.


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Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:44 pm
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Wow. I was expecting maybe one or two responses to this. I didn't think it would be a super topic of discussion.


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Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:05 am
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Liveatsix, Wood is a major component in our instruments a lot of people would be interested in the subject. Thank you for bringing it up.


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