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Post subject: Re: Done with Pickup gigs
Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:54 am
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TheKingofPain wrote:

Considering that the majority of popular music isn't necessarily very well crafted I don't think this is true. While studying how others have played music is important as an instrumentalist. Learning how each instrument works and how and where it can be used effectively isn't really done by just hashing out covers. That just turns you into a group of musicians who copy things. Learning theory, and arrangement are what helps you learn how to write a good song. It teaches you why those people played what they did, and why they played it in that manner. Sure you could spend years playing someone else's work til you figure out how to write songs. However, you'll just know how to write songs like someone else. That seems like purposely running a race at the back of the pack to see what winning looks like.


That must be why we have far more "original CD's" cranked out today than we have actual listeniers.

While I would agree the majority of popular music today isn't particularly well crafted, I think there's an enormous amount to be learned depending on the cover material you choose to do. Songwriting is more than theory and arrangement. Anyone can write a three chord progression with some lyrics and call it a song..and many have. But developing a musical theme that moves throughout the song, or developing a "lift" to move you from verse to chorus and how to marry that progression with appropriate lyrics that lead to the defining statements in the chorus is as much about the "feeling" as it is the architecture...which makes it art. Creativity spawns creativity. But if you only look at it as a mechanical process then what you say will be true. You will simply learn to write like someone else.

Don Henley and Glenn Frey learned to write decent songs when they lived in the apartment above Dan Fogelberg where they would listen to him every morning constructing his songs hour after hour on a single tune. This spawned their creative approach that eventually won them a record deal. However, none of their songs appear to sound much like Dan Fogelberg's. That's because art doesn't duplicate. it inspires.

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Post subject: Re: Done with Pickup gigs
Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:14 am
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dunedindragon wrote:
TheKingofPain wrote:

Considering that the majority of popular music isn't necessarily very well crafted I don't think this is true. While studying how others have played music is important as an instrumentalist. Learning how each instrument works and how and where it can be used effectively isn't really done by just hashing out covers. That just turns you into a group of musicians who copy things. Learning theory, and arrangement are what helps you learn how to write a good song. It teaches you why those people played what they did, and why they played it in that manner. Sure you could spend years playing someone else's work til you figure out how to write songs. However, you'll just know how to write songs like someone else. That seems like purposely running a race at the back of the pack to see what winning looks like.


That must be why we have far more "original CD's" cranked out today than we have actual listeniers.



You have far more "original cds" cranked out today because there is money in putting out music. There is an industry around making music. Ironically, most music put out by the industry isn't art at all. It's simply recycled garbage.


Quote:
While I would agree the majority of popular music today isn't particularly well crafted, I think there's an enormous amount to be learned depending on the cover material you choose to do. Songwriting is more than theory and arrangement. Anyone can write a three chord progression with some lyrics and call it a song..and many have. But developing a musical theme that moves throughout the song, or developing a "lift" to move you from verse to chorus and how to marry that progression with appropriate lyrics that lead to the defining statements in the chorus is as much about the "feeling" as it is the architecture...which makes it art. Creativity spawns creativity. But if you only look at it as a mechanical process then what you say will be true. You will simply learn to write like someone else.


Conversely then by your logic everyone who learns to play covers is well versed in writing good music. Which is certainly not the case.

Quote:
Don Henley and Glenn Frey learned to write decent songs when they lived in the apartment above Dan Fogelberg where they would listen to him every morning constructing his songs hour after hour on a single tune. This spawned their creative approach that eventually won them a record deal. However, none of their songs appear to sound much like Dan Fogelberg's. That's because art doesn't duplicate. it inspires.



Again. Read what you just wrote. They didn't learn how to play his songs and cover them. They studied his approach. How to construct a song. The knowledge Fogelberg was using was theory and arrangement. They weren't listening for the notes. They were listening for the method.

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Post subject: Re: Done with Pickup gigs
Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:15 am
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Jah Soldier wrote:
My latest creation:
Image

Image

Image

Built the whole bar. Check out that Mahogany bar top. Turned out looking nice.


Absolutely stunning work, sir!

8) 8) 8)

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Post subject: Re: Done with Pickup gigs
Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:06 am
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dunedindragon wrote:
Don Henley and Glenn Frey learned to write decent songs when they lived in the apartment above Dan Fogelberg where they would listen to him every morning constructing his songs hour after hour on a single tune. This spawned their creative approach that eventually won them a record deal.

I believe it was Glenn Frey and J.D. Souther who lived above Jackson Browne.

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Post subject: Re: Done with Pickup gigs
Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:30 am
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On that note...


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Post subject: Re: Done with Pickup gigs
Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:47 pm
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When it quits being fun, quit doing it! You should be playing with a band because you love playing, you love music, you love playing with other musicians. If money comes your way, great! The ones who are most successful (and wealthy) really did it because they actually LOVED it, not because they expected to get rich and famous. That all came as a result of their love of it all.

I actually love teaching, so I teach for free. What I love to see is when the light bulb comes on in a student because he/she finally "gets it."


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Post subject: Re: Done with Pickup gigs
Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:08 pm
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Nice looking bar, Jah!

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Post subject: Re: Done with Pickup gigs
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:50 am
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Thanks for the props on the bar guys! Being a finish carpenter has it's rewards too. It can be challenging and I still treat it like an art.

Believe it or not, this was actually more difficult.
Image

It may not look as spectacular, but the degree of difficulty is more. The lower countertops are 3 pieces seamed together. Everything was built in a shop first and it's built around existing pony walls. The difficult part was that when it all wrapped around the front, the tops end up FLUSH with the case-work. That means your margin of error is basically none. And how was it going to be attached?
Image

Image

If you know anything about cabinetry and the way existing framing usually is, you'll understand the degree of difficulty of having to wrap around that much countertop, keeping everything tight to the walls, and ending with a no tolerance measurement.

With everything pre built, and pre-laminated, when you look at what it is, and wrap your head around it, eventually you'll find yourself saying "how did he do that?" I was told by our other carpenter that I was crazy and that it wouldn't work to pre-build the whole job. But I had a vision, hahaha. To any carpenter, this is no easy puzzle to solve.

It doesn't mean that I don't love creating and performing music. I get a satisfaction from both. I love a challenge, I love art, I love to create. I'd gladly take being a musician as a profession, but I'm not interested in being in a working cover band unless it pays more than carpentry.
If you break things down hourly, it can. But how many working bands work 9-5, 5-days a week? In the course of a year, the consistency of carpentry makes me more. I'd rather do both, and be in a band that creates original stuff and plays out once or twice a month rather than playing out 3-5 nights a week, playing someone else's creations, and barely scrape by to live in a studio apt.

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Post subject: Re: Done with Pickup gigs
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:27 am
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Jah Soldier wrote:
Thanks for the props on the bar guys! Being a finish carpenter has it's rewards too. It can be challenging and I still treat it like an art.


That definitely definitely qualifies as art!

Part of the problem in the music business is, there are just so many fine guitarists and musicians out there. It's damn difficult to stake out some exclusive territory via catchy compositions, a smooth set of pipes, or smokin' hot guitar licks due to the proliferation of talent. But carpentry magic like yours......you have rare gift, my friend.

If you were local to me and I had need of a custom trim-out job, you'd get all my work.

Rawk on!

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Post subject: Re: Done with Pickup gigs
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:06 pm
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Jah Soldier wrote:
My latest creation:
Image

Image

Image

Built the whole bar. Check out that Mahogany bar top. Turned out looking nice.


Excellent. if you're going to work in an empty bar , that's the way to do it ;)


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Post subject: Re: Done with Pickup gigs
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:42 pm
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Very, very nice craftsmanship. I've always believed, and this goes for music also, if you put out a good product - the money part will take care of itself. There's a lot of contractors out there that have forgotten that.


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Post subject: Re: Done with Pickup gigs
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:00 pm
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That's very true. And that's what I was hoping my last band would understand more than anything.

My woodworking job gets it. They love my work, and I appreciate what they give me. No matter how big or small, I give 100%, and strive for perfection.

Image

And I try to carry that mentality into my recordings and shows as well. I've never really felt like I've been as good at music as my woodwork, but it doesn't stop me from trying.

I could learn Steve Vai's "For The Love Of God", and it wouldn't mean as much to me as something I wrote and created myself. That's what keeps me ticking.

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Post subject: Re: Done with Pickup gigs
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:50 am
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I quit playing in a cover band a while ago. My own family. We played the same old tired covers over and over and they refused to add any new material even it was from the same era they enjoyed so much. It was getting brutally boring and I got really tired of driving 30 miles to practice the same old stuff on my only day off. Plus, we rarely played out and the money never even covered my bar tab. I do miss playing with other musicians but they didn't like being pushed creatively. I am one who likes to take a cover tune in a completely differnt direction on occasion. My band mates didn't like to do anything remotely outside the norm. It got old quick.
Jah Soldier. You do nice work buddy. I do wall protection and we are always behind the cab crews. Trust me, you can tell when crews simply do the job and the ones who actually give a darn. It is obvious you take pride in your work. That is very rare here anymore. Very rare. We rarely work in rooms that are actually square. Really? My tape measure is pretty consistent. Apparently the guys framing walls use something differnt. I am sure you have the same gripe. Or do you? Anyway, nice work.


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Post subject: Re: Done with Pickup gigs
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:05 pm
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I've got a mental list of songs I will NEVER play again. Wonderful Tonight, Brown Eyed Girl, Can't Get Enough of Your Love, Knocking on Heaven's Door, the list goes on and on.

I don't do 12-bar blues jams either. The music world isn't about to be turned on its head by yet another 10-minute outbreak of pentatonic tedium in the key of E.

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Post subject: Re: Done with Pickup gigs
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:33 am
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jeebus wrote:
Jah Soldier. You do nice work buddy. I do wall protection and we are always behind the cab crews. Trust me, you can tell when crews simply do the job and the ones who actually give a darn. It is obvious you take pride in your work. That is very rare here anymore. Very rare. We rarely work in rooms that are actually square. Really? My tape measure is pretty consistent. Apparently the guys framing walls use something differnt. I am sure you have the same gripe. Or do you? Anyway, nice work.


Thank you. I appreciate that.

Framing is cheap labor around here. They're generally taught and forced to do things as fast as possible. In all my years of finished carpentry, I've run across my share of out of square, out of level, out of plumb, poorly secured, you name it.

Framers generally don't make good finish carpenters, and finish carpenters don't make good production framers. The mind sets are completely different. In framing "close is good enough" is an accepted ideology. He who is the fastest, is the best. In finish carpentry, it's unacceptable, and will eventually get you fired. Most framers I run across can't count in 16ths on a tape measure. They've never needed to. And level means "the bubble anywhere between the lines, and touching counts".

Keep in mind, that's mainly how it is here in Vegas. I can't speak for other parts of the Country. I know in other states, there are carpenters who do both. Here, it's split into 2-different trades.

I could go on for a while on the subject. Don't get me started on metal framing. It's evil. But for commercial purposes, it's a necessary evil.

Also, I'm not saying that framers don't work hard. They do. But accuracy isn't as big of a concern in their world as it is for a finish carpenter.

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