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Post subject: Re: My local just let me know they no longer a Fender Dealer
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:36 pm
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This isn't a phenomenon limited to Fender. Anyone that gets big enough through customer loyalty can become a victim to this kind of thinking. Most recently Harley Davidson has been going through this same mindset and it has resulted in quite a number of their long-time dealers shutting their doors or changing their dealer affiliation to other brands due to the unreasonable requirements for being a dealer for Harley.

The similarities between these two companies is actually pretty interesting. In both cases they've dominated their market space due to intense customer loyalty that's questionably deserved. I don't think either makes a "market dominating" product. The loyalty is based on the product name alone. The ironic aspect is that the situation most affects the most loyal customers...who were the ones who created the market conditions that allowed it to happen.

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Post subject: Re: My local just let me know they no longer a Fender Dealer
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:33 am
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dunedindragon wrote:
This isn't a phenomenon limited to Fender. Anyone that gets big enough through customer loyalty can become a victim to this kind of thinking. Most recently Harley Davidson has been going through this same mindset and it has resulted in quite a number of their long-time dealers shutting their doors or changing their dealer affiliation to other brands due to the unreasonable requirements for being a dealer for Harley.

The similarities between these two companies is actually pretty interesting. In both cases they've dominated their market space due to intense customer loyalty that's questionably deserved. I don't think either makes a "market dominating" product. The loyalty is based on the product name alone. The ironic aspect is that the situation most affects the most loyal customers...who were the ones who created the market conditions that allowed it to happen.


Exactly what I was implying. Almost any business has to deal with this if they want to represent and carry a "name brand". However I find the analogy to a Harley Davidson dealership a bit different as I have seen hundreds of Harley Davidson dealerships on the road sides but never a specific "Fender" dealership or a store dedicated to only Fender Guitars. I have seen plenty of dealerships dedicated to only or at least primarily Harleys and the massive signage was impossible to ignore..

That said, yes if some small local motorcycle dealership wanted to take on selling new Harleys they are definitely going to be exposed to sales pressure that they would normally not if used to selling other brands that do not have that kind of brand recognition and nostalgia/image etc. Same with a small local mom and pop music store that wants to take on selling Fenders. They have to take the good with the bad and if they can not afford or handle the bad will perhaps be better off without it.

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Post subject: Re: My local just let me know they no longer a Fender Dealer
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:04 am
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Gibson has guitars in all kinds of price ranges. LP Standards are the high end of the line. The Traditional Pro is nice and under two grand. Personally, I don't care about guitar bling so the Studio Series suits me fine.

I always thought Fenders guitar prices were a little steep considering it's a bolt together guitar. I built a Tele and it ain't rocket science and it sounds as good as any I've ever played.
Set neck guitars seems to require a higher skill set. But again, it all about the quality of the parts driving the prices too. It looks like Gibson just had a nice price hike too. Just wait for a sale or pick up a LP that's a couple years old.

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Post subject: Re: My local just let me know they no longer a Fender Dealer
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:24 am
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ebaysux wrote:
That said, yes if some small local motorcycle dealership wanted to take on selling new Harleys they are definitely going to be exposed to sales pressure that they would normally not if used to selling other brands that do not have that kind of brand recognition and nostalgia/image etc. Same with a small local mom and pop music store that wants to take on selling Fenders. They have to take the good with the bad and if they can not afford or handle the bad will perhaps be better off without it.



This was really the crux of it. She could afford to stock the commitment amount they were requiring. Without a problem. However, they were also telling her what percentage of it had to be the lower end merchandise. Which was where the line was drawn. It's one thing to say to your dealer "you have to carry X number of dollars worth of stock to maintain your status". Another entirely not to allow the dealer to decide what they want to order based on their market.

Most of the Fender guys who frequent that shop have years on me. They are not interested in non-US made Fenders, or really even Fenders that are on the lower end of the US spectrum with modern specs. They want instruments and amps that are built the way they used to be built and with that quality. Which Fender still offers.

However, if you force that same dealer to buy half of their stock in low end junk that their customers will NOT buy then you are just taking away every incentive they have for carrying it. The wall of Mustang Amps that are still collecting dust from last year could have made space for the rig I would have bought on the spot. In cash. Thousands of dollars in sales wasted on trendy junk that will end up sitting for who knows how long. That's not good business. It's big business, but it's not good business. It's the kind of business done by people who are in it for the short term to turn a bunch of profit and leave someone else holding the bag.

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Post subject: Re: My local just let me know they no longer a Fender Dealer
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:57 am
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63supro wrote:
Gibson has guitars in all kinds of price ranges. LP Standards are the high end of the line. The Traditional Pro is nice and under two grand. Personally, I don't care about guitar bling so the Studio Series suits me fine.

I always thought Fenders guitar prices were a little steep considering it's a bolt together guitar. I built a Tele and it ain't rocket science and it sounds as good as any I've ever played.
Set neck guitars seems to require a higher skill set. But again, it all about the quality of the parts driving the prices too. It looks like Gibson just had a nice price hike too. Just wait for a sale or pick up a LP that's a couple years old.

I bought a Traditional Pro a few months ago brand new and paid $1,500 for it and its a fantastic guitar.


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Post subject: Re: My local just let me know they no longer a Fender Dealer
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:03 am
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I wouldn't buy a new guitar from Fender or Gibson at this point. Both companies are lacking what I actually want, and honestly, Fender has been more disappointing with its products lately. What really irks me is the custom shop. You pay a premium for features that were standard 40 years ago with an ugly $@! tattoo on the back of the headstock, essentially getting a fake vintage instrument for more than what an actual vintage Fender would cost.

As a player, I'd only buy something new from Fender if there were a Squier Classic Vibe international color hardtail 70s Stratocaster. I'm not paying 5k for a copy of an instrument I can pick up for $2500. It's just stupid if you ask me.

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Post subject: Re: My local just let me know they no longer a Fender Dealer
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:11 am
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The Gibson Standard Line is comparable to Fender's American Vintage line and is priced at considerably higher. Though as has been said the nature of the Gibson design requires a different approach and that approach likely turns into extra dollars. The Traditional Pro is equivalent to an American Standard and while you got a good deal looking at the average price on line. You still paid more than you would have for a Standard. I think comparing Fender and Gibson guitars by price isn't really a fair process. When you buy an American Vintage you get a high end vintage correct Fender and you pay for it. When you buy an LP Standard you pay for it. Whether one is more expensive than the other is like comparing apples and oranges. However, whether they are BOTH overpriced is not. They certainly are. The prices on these guitars has increased well beyond the rate of inflation. Vastly even. However, in the case of both companies that increase has not been limited to higher end product. It has happened across the board. They are simply raising the goal post and dividing their customer base. Between those who will be forced to move to middle tier and lower end gear due to budget, those who will simply decrease the amount of gear they hold and pay the higher premium for the higher end gear, and those who will simply walk away.

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Post subject: Re: My local just let me know they no longer a Fender Dealer
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:15 am
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Buxom wrote:
I wouldn't buy a new guitar from Fender or Gibson at this point. Both companies are lacking what I actually want, and honestly, Fender has been more disappointing with its products lately. What really irks me is the custom shop. You pay a premium for features that were standard 40 years ago with an ugly $@! tattoo on the back of the headstock, essentially getting a fake vintage instrument for more than what an actual vintage Fender would cost.

As a player, I'd only buy something new from Fender if there were a Squier Classic Vibe international color hardtail 70s Stratocaster. I'm not paying 5k for a copy of an instrument I can pick up for $2500. It's just stupid if you ask me.



Great points, and certainly legitimate ones if you are in the market for 70's instruments. Though neither the Squier Classic Vibe, or the Fender Classic line are really built to vintage specs. You have to go to the American Vintage Line or the Custom Shop for that still. Which in the case of 70's instruments is silly as you can pick them up for anywhere between 1200-2500 dollars depending on the condition. However, if you like pre-CBS specs and gear the Cost Benefit Analysis becomes much less favorable on the vintage end of things. While it's ridiculous that Fender doesn't offer a first generation Precision bass in it's American Vintage line. Even the Custom Shop prices are less than half of what you would pay for a true vintage model in similar condition.

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Post subject: Re: My local just let me know they no longer a Fender Dealer
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:48 am
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tbazzone wrote:
63supro wrote:
Gibson has guitars in all kinds of price ranges. LP Standards are the high end of the line. The Traditional Pro is nice and under two grand. Personally, I don't care about guitar bling so the Studio Series suits me fine.

I always thought Fenders guitar prices were a little steep considering it's a bolt together guitar. I built a Tele and it ain't rocket science and it sounds as good as any I've ever played.
Set neck guitars seems to require a higher skill set. But again, it all about the quality of the parts driving the prices too. It looks like Gibson just had a nice price hike too. Just wait for a sale or pick up a LP that's a couple years old.

I bought a Traditional Pro a few months ago brand new and paid $1,500 for it and its a fantastic guitar.


Yeah Tim they are nice. If you catch a sale it's even better. Now I'm looking at the Gibson ES335 and 339 Studios. I tried them and they're really nice for the money and the workmanship on the two I tried was outstanding. Stripped down guitars don't bother me at all. I look for tone, and playability. I don't give a ratsass about shine and binding. :wink:

The fact is, good gear costs money. That's why we have Squires and MIA guitars. As you get more serious, you work your way up. It's a shame what the manufacturers do to the dealers, but they need to stay afloat too. Every guitar Martin Guitars ships is sold period. I got that info the last time I was at the factory. You can't keep a factory going on spec sales but they should cut the Mom and Pop shops some slack. They were around before the big box stores and made them what they are today. I try to deal with a small shop every time I can.

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Post subject: Re: My local just let me know they no longer a Fender Dealer
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:10 am
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I don't care about perfect vintage specs on a new instrument, since I'm apt to mod the thing anyway--which is why my not-perfectly-accurate 1992 '62 reissue Strat makes me happy; it looks the way I want to, and I replaced the pups with something I consider an upgrade [ymmv], blocked the tremolo, modded the electronics/switching, and changed the pickguard.

I understand why some players (like King of Pain) want those features to be as accurate as possible in every way.

However, I'm pretty much done buying new instruments; the depreciation is just too much...the only way I would buy a new-in-the-box axe is if it were (1) an outstanding deal or (2) I cannot find a similarly appointed used instrument.

...and while I prefer an American-made instrument (mainly because I hate unemployment in any form), my budget limits me to (mostly) used MIM or ME (made elsewhere) instruments...

Which brings me to my current situation; My favorite electric guitar is the (very) modded MIM 1995 Special Tele. It originally had a coil-tapped humbucker in the neck position and a 5-way switch...after a couple of different experiments, it is now sporting a P-90 in the neck position and four-way Tele switching. It is my go-to guitar, feels the best, sounds the best and looks pretty dang cool with the (replacement) tortoiseshell pickguard and the chrome-covered neck pup. I realize that I like the feel of this one better than any other guitar I currently own...and that makes all the difference.

It boils down to this:
If the guitar "feels" good, I'm interested.
If it "sounds" good (or can be made to sound good by pup switching or something), I'm more interested.
If it "looks" good, I'm even more interested.
If I can afford that guitar, THEN and ONLY THEN will I be thinking about parting with some cash.

I don't care the brand or pedigree...only the the four criteria listed above.

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Post subject: Re: My local just let me know they no longer a Fender Dealer
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:09 pm
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Seeing these kinds of posts reminds me of how good I have it here. I have 2 GCs, a Sam Ash, and 3 local shops all within a 20 mile radius. Not to mention a whole lot of Pawn shops. Closest GC to me is a 10-minute drive.

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Post subject: Re: My local just let me know they no longer a Fender Dealer
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:01 pm
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ebaysux wrote:
Not sure if the best place to post that is on a Fender forum unless you expected a critical response. It is not Fenders fault if you overpaid for an MIM or got a great deal on a USA SG. That aside the 2 guitars are so much on different ends of the spectrum you might as well go on a Chevy forum and tell them you got a better deal on Mustang then a Corvette and see how that pans out for you. :D

Disagree. For these nearly 7 years now, the Forums have been a sounding board for the Fender faithful. If the 'suits' fail to take counsel from what the intent is constructive criticism, the faithful will vote with their feet.

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Post subject: Re: My local just let me know they no longer a Fender Dealer
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:55 pm
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TheKingofPain wrote:
ebaysux wrote:
That said, yes if some small local motorcycle dealership wanted to take on selling new Harleys they are definitely going to be exposed to sales pressure that they would normally not if used to selling other brands that do not have that kind of brand recognition and nostalgia/image etc. Same with a small local mom and pop music store that wants to take on selling Fenders. They have to take the good with the bad and if they can not afford or handle the bad will perhaps be better off without it.



This was really the crux of it. She could afford to stock the commitment amount they were requiring. Without a problem. However, they were also telling her what percentage of it had to be the lower end merchandise. Which was where the line was drawn. It's one thing to say to your dealer "you have to carry X number of dollars worth of stock to maintain your status". Another entirely not to allow the dealer to decide what they want to order based on their market.

Most of the Fender guys who frequent that shop have years on me. They are not interested in non-US made Fenders, or really even Fenders that are on the lower end of the US spectrum with modern specs. They want instruments and amps that are built the way they used to be built and with that quality. Which Fender still offers.

However, if you force that same dealer to buy half of their stock in low end junk that their customers will NOT buy then you are just taking away every incentive they have for carrying it. The wall of Mustang Amps that are still collecting dust from last year could have made space for the rig I would have bought on the spot. In cash. Thousands of dollars in sales wasted on trendy junk that will end up sitting for who knows how long. That's not good business. It's big business, but it's not good business. It's the kind of business done by people who are in it for the short term to turn a bunch of profit and leave someone else holding the bag.


It happened to me years ago when I had my own shop in a related electronics business. Some of the better known lines I wanted because of their high end reputation forced me to also take and sell a percentage of their entry level stuff and even other products I did not want or need and made much more profit on other brands. But that was the price to pay. If I did not honor it they would just approach the nearest competitor who would normally be salivating for the line and pull my account according to the dealer agreement.

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Post subject: Re: My local just let me know they no longer a Fender Dealer
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:23 pm
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63supro wrote:
tbazzone wrote:
63supro wrote:
Gibson has guitars in all kinds of price ranges. LP Standards are the high end of the line. The Traditional Pro is nice and under two grand. Personally, I don't care about guitar bling so the Studio Series suits me fine.

I always thought Fenders guitar prices were a little steep considering it's a bolt together guitar. I built a Tele and it ain't rocket science and it sounds as good as any I've ever played.
Set neck guitars seems to require a higher skill set. But again, it all about the quality of the parts driving the prices too. It looks like Gibson just had a nice price hike too. Just wait for a sale or pick up a LP that's a couple years old.

I bought a Traditional Pro a few months ago brand new and paid $1,500 for it and its a fantastic guitar.


Yeah Tim they are nice. If you catch a sale it's even better. Now I'm looking at the Gibson ES335 and 339 Studios. I tried them and they're really nice for the money and the workmanship on the two I tried was outstanding. Stripped down guitars don't bother me at all. I look for tone, and playability. I don't give a ratsass about shine and binding. :wink:

The fact is, good gear costs money. That's why we have Squires and MIA guitars. As you get more serious, you work your way up. It's a shame what the manufacturers do to the dealers, but they need to stay afloat too. Every guitar Martin Guitars ships is sold period. I got that info the last time I was at the factory. You can't keep a factory going on spec sales but they should cut the Mom and Pop shops some slack. They were around before the big box stores and made them what they are today. I try to deal with a small shop every time I can.


Yea, good gear costs money, no doubt.

But, simple price comparisons between Fender and Gibson don't consider that Fenders are 'Modular' guitars that cost much less to produce than the more traditional methods employed by Gibson. Gibsons just cost more to make. Unfortunately, Gibsons are coming up short on both Quality of Workmanship and Materials compared to what they once were.

So much so, that I opted for a Heritage H-535 over an ES-335 for many hundreds $ less and couldn't be more pleased. It's better made, using superior materials, than the Gibson.

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Being an Amateur player means you have to try and get the most Bang4Buck and if well bought, you can do quite well. I got my FSR Ltd. Ed. '57 AVRI, my Telebration (Empress) Telecaster and my FSR Set-neck Custom Mahogany HH Telecaster all for just $125 more than the cost of an LP Standard.

I dearly want an LP someday, and I'll get the Standard when I do (if I don't opt for a Heritage instead). But for now, I'm pretty happy going the route I did.

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: My local just let me know they no longer a Fender Dealer
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:37 pm
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Make way for Sammy Ash and Geetarcenter, only in a larger city near you! :wink:


Last edited by JimRussellMills30! on Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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