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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:27 pm
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strings10927 wrote:

Here's what a computer used to look like:

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The components were bullet-proof compared to what comes in a computer these days. And there's a really good reason for the decline in quality. After about a decade, a computer becomes essentially worthless, whether it functions normally or not. So why not use cheap components that will just get the job done, since in 8-10 years you'll be throwing it out anyway to make room for the new model with more features, faster, more energy efficient, etc.?


A modern desktop pc still has a lot in common with that old IBM. IBM made the architecture an open standard when they came out with the original pc. Could Fender do that with DSP musical instrument sound systems? This is already done in software but I'm thinking more of a open hardware standard. It would need to be defined and agreed upon by the major players in the field. I could come up with a standard but nobody gives a rip what I come up with.

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:09 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
The components were bullet-proof compared to what comes in a computer these days. And there's a really good reason for the decline in quality. After about a decade, a computer becomes essentially worthless, whether it functions normally or not. So why not use cheap components that will just get the job done, since in 8-10 years you'll be throwing it out anyway to make room for the new model with more features, faster, more energy efficient, etc.?

Not always more energy efficient. My e-mail/dns/dhcp server is a Pentium IIIS. It's been doing its job for over a decade now, and it's so energy efficient that it doesn't even need a fan. It uses less power than my router. If I were to replace it with a Xeon based server today, I would most certainly increase the power consumption threefold or more. And if I don't buy server grade (like PIIIS and Xeon), I most certainly can't expect it to last for more than 3-4 years.
In short, you get what you pay for, but the choices are becoming limited because so many others are unwilling to pay for quality, just features. And that's the answer right there - you can't buy solid and repairable computers anymore because they're no longer bought by enthusiasts who actually care - most of the buyers are consumers who don't care as long as it's cheap.
Same with guitars, amps and keyboards, unfortunately.


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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:44 pm
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upnorth wrote:
strings10927 wrote:
After about a decade, a computer becomes essentially worthless, whether it functions normally or not. So why not use cheap components that will just get the job done, since in 8-10 years you'll be throwing it out anyway to make room for the new model with more features, faster, more energy efficient, etc.?


Please contact me in regards to the essentially worthless amps from the 50's and 60's that will be thrown in the dumpster because they are outdated.


In 1962, I purchased a Fender Concert amp, in 1968, I purchased a Fender Bandmaster, both new. I still have and use them. Yes, a few caps have been replaced. But I don't see either being superseded by a "better" today amp. Of course, they don't provide modeling capability. But, I guess I might be considered old fashion.

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:02 pm
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A good friend of mine is using a Line 6 Spider IV for about 10 years now with steady gigging and didn't have any issues with it. He makes it sound good and works for him and says it a tank.
The thing is he's living in Easter Europe and it's really hard to make ends meet and to spend over a 1000 for a good tube amp is ridiculous for the bar band he plays in and the money he makes.
He's been dreaming about a Fender amp, but that's as far as he can go for now.
So these cheaper SS amps do have their place and don't break as easy as we would think and more importantly are light.
I have a Mustang III and if it's a small gig that's the one that goes with me, not the tube.
It sounds good, cuts through and it's versatile, what more could I want.
I hope that it will last long, and I'm pretty sure it will, but if not, for the 200 bucks I spent on it used, it was already worth it.
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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:10 am
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I really have mixed feelings when it comes to buying gear with complicated electronics.They often have vital components that are very minute and vital to the operation of the particular product,but are extremely hard to pinpoint if there is a breakdown in its operation. I have some gear home that was state of the art when first introduced such as my Electro Harmonix Electric Mistress and Bad Stone pedals that are still working as well as they did when I first bought them when they were new to the market but they were made to be durable and used top quality ICs etc. that had a long life expectancy. Recently I have heard so many horror stories about electronic components that have conked out soon after purchase or after the short warranty period has run out,that I am very apprehensive about buying big ticket gear with intricate and most likely very delicate electronics. I agree that planned obsolescence seems to almost be the order of the day in the present throw away society where we have everything from disposable razors to disposable contact lenses.

I have a $100 Vox Mini 3 and have had it for over 2 years so if it packs it in today,it would be no big loss.I also have a Vox AD-120-VTH that cost in excess of $1,200 when new but that I paid only $300 for used 4 or 5 years ago,so if it gave out today I'd be miffed but not totally devastated,however if I had paid the full retail price for it,even after 5 years I'd be pretty bummed out.I have read several posts where people have made considerably pricey purchases only to have them fail and that's what makes me reluctant to buy big ticket items.

I still have my first amp,a $50 or $60 Pine Electronics of Montreal Paul amp that I was given for Christmas in 1967 and it not only sounds much better than it did new,but it still has the original components,even the caps and tubes,despite almost 50 years of often brutal use.If I could be assured that a big bucks amp or effects unit etc. would give me the trouble-free service that my E-H pedals and my old Paul amp have given me, I'd certainly buy one but until then,my $300 used Vox amp will be my most expensive complicated "digital" device.

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:58 am
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Why do modeling amps only attempt to model existing gear?

Why not model gear that was never made?

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:03 am
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I have zero experience with Fender modelling amps.
My only experience with modelling is my own Line-6 amp which I very rarely play anymore.

Several years ago my friend bought a Mustang 3. I never got the chance to try it because he lived a couple towns away and he sold it so quickly. I think he only had it about 8 weeks. He said he took it to a gig and that he was glad he took his Champ-25 with him as a back-up because the Mustang was useless on stage. He said the sheer number of button pushes it took to scroll through the sounds to find the one you want was excruciating. He said there was a foot controller that made the channel switching task easier but that buying it basically doubled the price of the amp so he sold it. He said if he was going to buy some Chinese disposable amp it needed to be cheap and doubling the price just to make it usable negated any viability the amp may have otherwise had. He also had a couple of G-Dec amps which I also never tried and which he got rid of right away.

So ... I don't really have any comment but I can repeat my friend's comments. He is far more adventurous than I am when it comes to trying new things. There is only one thing he has tried in the past dozen years or so that was good enough he kept it. TC Electronics Vocal harmonizer for guitar. It was good enough I actually bought one myself and quite like it. In my mind if a guy who loves to try all the new-fangled gadgetry has never liked any new Fender modelling amp enough to keep it ... well that's a good enough endorsement for me.

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:04 am
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mhowell wrote:

Why not model gear that was never made?


:lol: :lol:
Cute

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:40 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Several years ago my friend bought a Mustang 3.....He said there was a foot controller that made the channel switching task easier but that buying it basically doubled the price of the amp so he sold it.

Fender Mustang III Amp: $329.99

2-Button Footswitch: Included
4-button Footswitch: $60

Your friend was exaggerating. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:41 am
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I can speak to this particularly. As our guitarist recently left his Mustang III behind for a Blues Jr. On my advice and after having gone and tried the Blues Jr in person himself and hearing the difference for himself. He had debated on getting rid of the Mustang and I told him it would be foolish and here's why...

NOW, let me preface this by saying I am NOT here to bash the Mustang. Because honestly it is an extremely well made amp and I can see one ideal use for it. Both for newer players who wish to find their way to the kinds of amps and effects that they like, and also for a more experienced guitarist who might want to toy with different amps and effects and how they will work with their style without actually purchasing high end gear. Basically as a learning tool, experimentation lab and practice amp I think these things are absolutely top notch tools and I'd actually encourage any working musician who is still at the stage of exploring effects and amp choices to get their hands on one. You can get a very good idea of what different amps and effect configurations will give you in terms of basic sound with your playing style and chosen instrument.

HOWEVER, when it comes to pure tone and sound quality there is still no substitute for tubes and Fender spring reverb, imo. There IS a definitive difference in the quality of sound between the Blues Jr, and the Mustang III in terms of basic tone, response and obviously the way gain functions with vacuum tubes.

So while the Blues Jr does what it does on a totally different level. The Mustang III gives you the opportunity to hear all the different ways you could use an amp like the Blues Jr and tons of other amps without actually having to purchase or borrow that gear. In my opinion for a working musician who is still experimenting and finding their way, or for a beginner these modelling amps, and the modelling amps Fender is offering in particular are a great tool to have in one's shed. However, they are just that. Tools, and once you find that sound for that particular project or your own personal choice. Then when it's time to take it to the clubs it becomes time to step up the game to the real deal. What these amps do is allow you to figure out what you dig BEFORE putting tons of money into gear and being "stuck" with a sound, or having the equipment you can afford dictate the sound you end up embracing as your own.

I think when used in this capacity they allow musicians a greater control and freedom over the artists they inevitably become much earlier on in their journey. As opposed to the way things used to be. Just my opinion, of course.

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:48 am
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strings10927 wrote:
BMW-KTM wrote:
Several years ago my friend bought a Mustang 3.....He said there was a foot controller that made the channel switching task easier but that buying it basically doubled the price of the amp so he sold it.

Fender Mustang III Amp: $329.99

2-Button Footswitch: Included
4-button Footswitch: $60

Your friend was exaggerating. :wink:

I'm pretty sure he said there was still a whole lot of scrolling through options with the simple switch and that there was a bigger optional foot controller that was almost as much as the amp.

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:51 am
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the bigger pedal is $60. I have a Mustang III and every available pedal.

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:18 pm
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63supro wrote:
Fender was never known for it's effects except for maybe the Fender Blender. I liked their Fuzz Wah, bit that's about it.

Not to disagree, but my all time favorite effect ever was (and still is,)the 60's Fender Reverb unit I got at a garage sale in the late 80's for 5 bucks.
It will likely outlast me in functionality. ( I also have what I think was a pretty cheap late 60's early 70's SS amp (it says :Transistor Amplifier on a sticker on the back.But most of the sticker is gone and there's no branding or badges or anything on it anymore, and they were gone before I got it. No idea what it is,) that although the cheap tolex is faded, works like new. I've only ever cleaned the pots.

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:16 pm
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Funny thing is Jah, Fender's old reverb units are legendary, I'm talking pedals and digital effects. That reverb in the Hrd series is horrible though. Too over the top and solid state driven.

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:23 am
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I'm not sure what that's in response to 63Supro.

But concerning Reverbs, I spent a good couple hours dialing in a few different reverb vibes on my good 'ol Digitech TSR-24S.

If you ever want an interesting read on an underrated piece of gear. The TSR was a culmination of some of the best quality effects for its time. The history of it suggests that it's equipped with Lexicon Stereo Reverb. The gigaverb algorithm is a stereo reverb with 20 tweakable parameters, 16 shapes and 10 rooms to choose from.

I'd never really messed with the reverb in it (in depth) much. But now that I have the Heidkamp, I want to really dial in some good stuff for it with what I have on hand.

It's not very much of a user friendly unit. But once you learn to navigate your way around the front panel, it really is a great effects processor. I think I bought it for $120 back in the late 90's.

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A bunch of buttons and an old school LCD format. Without a manual, it can be a real nightmare to navigate. But man, the effects in it can really get down.

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