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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:21 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Jah Soldier wrote:
I can't wager on something I don't own yet.


You let me know publically on this forum when you're ready and I'll make the necessary arrangements for an impartial overseer to monitor the moneys.

As for superkid, he is not an adult and I will never wager with a child. If/when he attains the age of majority and still wishes to bet, I'll be more than happy to accommodate him.

Arjay
I think properly cared for and ungigged you could get 8 years out of it.
My POD for example will be 14 at some point this summer.
I don't know if new amps of any kind could withstand the rigours of gigging like the old stuff though.

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:22 pm
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You know.. I'm going to decline this kind of bet.

Although I'm of the opinion that a Mustang IV can easily last 8-years, I honestly don't like the idea of an 8-year freaking bet. I think that's a little ridiculous.

Since I'm not always aware of the ages of forum members, I do applaud that he won't enter into a money bet with someone who may not be of age to enter into a contract.

I'm not really interested in an 8-year $100 bet with anyone over anything. He might find another taker. But I have my opinion, he has his, and I'd rather just leave it at that.

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:31 pm
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I can appreciate your position but I will find a way to make the mechanics of such a wager practical and workable -- that is, assuming you're that confident in your assertion.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:01 am
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Why? I think it's been pretty civil. There hasn't been any name calling or flaming. Everyone should be free to express their feelings whether it's favorable or popular or not.

I love open discussion. I think this topic is going well. Great opinions are being shared.

My initial thoughts are that the Mustang sounds great. But that really is just the first step. What Arth and Arjay bring to the table are concerns of the nuts and bolts to the equation, and their concerns about what's at the heart of the inner workings.

I want to hear those aspects as well.

While I would certainly hope Fender is making them to be able to last more than 8-years. I'd like to hear Arth's opinion on whether he thinks his would last longer than that. I mean, it's obvious he doesn't like his, but he didn't say it was broken. Just that he didn't like the way it functions even as a working unit.

So there's kinda two different aspects going on here.

I'm not really interested in making an 8-year bet on anything. But if Arjay is willing to make that kind of wager, there's obviously some hint if a real concern behind it.. I still would like to hear what those concerns are.

Maybe it's a good thing for Fender to hear those concerns as well. I don't think it does anyone any favors by locking the topic at this point.

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:52 am
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I consider the Mustang I & II to be perfectly acceptable amps for my purposes. The III, IV, and V are probably great fine amps but I have no experience with them. Been using a Mustang I V.1 for a couple of years now. It was bought used for $50 or $60 and I consider it a disposable commodity - but I've not needed to dispose of it yet.

I assume after 8 years it should still be fine but I am not confident enough to bet on it. It is truly a flimsy piece of work. If I get motivated I'll pull the back off and upload some photos of the internals. It does not even have an enclosed chassis.

Although I think it could last 8 years I don't know what parts availability would be like in 8 years. But why pay to have it repaired anyway? I'm sure a repair would cost more than what's it's worth.

The first 6L6 tubes were manufactured in 1936 and the 6V6 goes back to 1937. I'm willing bet a crap load of cash that the DSP chip in current Mustang amps will not be in production for 7 decades.

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:33 am
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Okay, I'll wade into this discussion..carefully.

I've owned my Mustang IV version 2 for about 6 months, but I've been using modeling amps for the last 5 years and amp modeling studio software for the last 9 or 10 years. I will say that modeling amps are not for everyone. If you're a technophobe or don't adapt easily to doing things differently than how you've done them in the past, then modeling may not be for you. The behaviors of a modeling amp vary based on which base amp model you use. With a tube amp you have a single type of behavior that responds consistenty to changes in gain, volume, EQ, etc. But because a modeling amp (or modeling software for that matter) are based on specific amp models the behavior of the knobs and settings will vary from model to model as they are emulating the behavior of the base model amp.

For example, a Champ responds very differently to changes in volume and gain than does a Twin. You would expect that with a REAL Twin and a REAL Champ, so the behavior is consistent in that regard. The key to using modeling is to determine what type of tone you're looking for and start with an amp model that best suits that tone and work forward from that.

As far as volume or the speakers on a Mustang I can't really speak much to that. The speakers are the same as you would see in any traditional amp so they will respond accordingly. Personally I've never had the master volume on my Mustang above 4 as I've never seen the need to. This is my gigging amp so it's always mic'd through the PA. I only need enough volume to blend appropriately with the other instruments in the band. I suppose there could be venues in which you might depend on amp volume because you aren't going through the PA, but I haven't played any like that and I would assume they would be fairly small rooms in which you aren't going to need much volume anyway.

Bear in mind that there is a Master volume and a Model volume. I very often have the model volume cranked pretty high in order to achieve the "tube" breakup I want, but this is exclusive of the Master volume. This arrangement allows me to achieve the level of breakup I want without the high overall SPL. It's also important to note that a Princeton model doesn't push the same SPL as does a Marshall at similar volume settings, and it works that way on a Mustang as well. So I do spend a lot of my time working with each model's volume settings to make sure they are consistent when I switch between models during a gig. I don't want to drive the sound man, or the other band members crazy with wide swings in overall volume.

As far as longevity, they'll last as long as any other solid state device does..TV's, radios, microwaves, computers, etc. What they will be prone to is advances in modeling algorithms and DSP circuits in the same way as computers. Computers from the 80's are still capable of running, but they've been replaced with more advanced models. I've been playing around with amp modeling both in the studio as well as live gigging long enough to see this happen first hand, and I expect to see it again in the future as the technology improves. In my opinion this is exactly what sets the Mustang above all of it's competitors in the modeling field. It is far and away the most accurate representation of the models it's emulating than any amp or studio software I've yet encountered. I'm sure there's high end gear such as a Kemper that out-perform a Mustang, but I fully expect that as time and digital electronics progress, that same level of capability will be showing up in off-the-shelf modeling amps within 5 or 6 years. At the price of today's modeling amps I'll be ready to invest another $400 for that.

Finally, and most importantly, modeling is best suited for needs in which you need a wide range of sounds. If you play one single style of music and aren't likely to vary from that, then I'm not sure you'll get the full value from a modeling amp. The stuff I play with my band ranges from blues, to jazz, to older R&B, to vintage rock, to metal, to country...and some stuff in between. In my case I can't imagine approaching this range of material without a modeling amp...and at least a couple of different types of guitars.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to at least provide some perspective into the discussion from someone who's been successfully using modeling for a significant period of time.

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:56 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
omar59 wrote:
My Mustang III is awesome! Yes, welcome to the dark side, not only is it SS, it is DIGITAL!!! OMG!!!! :shock:


And you're convinced that 25 or 30 years from now it will still be playing, just as with the Fender amps of yore, right?

If you believe that then I've got a bag full of guitar picks that I lifted from the glovebox of Duane Allman's car that I'll be glad to sell you.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Arjay


I don't know if it will be playing or not, but for under $400.00, I'll just buy a new one. Please under stand, I do not think tube amps are bad, I will be buying a small 5-10 watt tube amp someday( I like the EC Vibro Champ). I am not, and will never be a professional musican. I cannot justifiy the purchase price or the maintenace cost of a big tube amp, not when I can have the sound for a lot less money. I think everything has it's place and SS digital modeling amps will find theirs. I am sure in 20-30 years tube amps will stilll be going strong. If by some wild stroke of luck I do become a profesional musican, I will buy a big tube amp and name it Arjay. :) :) :)

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:37 am
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Business today, including Fender, is geared toward "keeping the investor happy". Why do you really think they didn't go public? Keeping their investors happy requires a SS product that doesn't last, oh and "let's make the parts obsolete after the warranty is done." Why aren't they making new PTP amps priced so the average person can afford a few? Simple. They last.


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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:02 am
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The speed at which modeling technology (technology for that matter) moves way faster than the warranty on a Mustang Amp which is 5 years. That’s a great warranty IMO. And I should hope that there are improvements in such a timeframe. As for the amp lasting. My buddy has a Line 6 Ax2 212 which came out in 1996. Still works and is a great amp. The only malfunction on it is the clip LED light is out. Not a huge deal considering. Will the Mustangs last that long? Only time will tell. But it’s a great product that has its place.

Art1 raises some good points. He’s comparing a Mustang II however so I wouldn’t expect the performace you’d get from the III or higher. I don’t have any of the issues he mentions as some of those are subjective. I spent a bit of time organizing the amp in fuse and setting up the FX knobs so I could cut loose from the need for a constant tether to fuse and thus have quick access to my commonly used FX and a few amp models I like set clean and a bit dirty, and an extra OD pedal for extra dirt when I need and want. The great thing about these amps are they can be as simple or complex as you want. Very versatile and very affordable. If the LCD panel on the big brothers go out well… if what many say is true there should be plenty of spare parts in the future.

“If it sounds good it is good”

If it lasts a long time… even better.

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:10 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
And you're convinced that 25 or 30 years from now it will still be playing, just as with the Fender amps of yore, right?

Arjay, there's something you just don't 'get'. Technology has moved on, you're living in the past.

Here's what a computer used to look like:

Image

The components were bullet-proof compared to what comes in a computer these days. And there's a really good reason for the decline in quality. After about a decade, a computer becomes essentially worthless, whether it functions normally or not. So why not use cheap components that will just get the job done, since in 8-10 years you'll be throwing it out anyway to make room for the new model with more features, faster, more energy efficient, etc.?

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:45 am
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strings10927 wrote:
After about a decade, a computer becomes essentially worthless, whether it functions normally or not. So why not use cheap components that will just get the job done, since in 8-10 years you'll be throwing it out anyway to make room for the new model with more features, faster, more energy efficient, etc.?


Please contact me in regards to the essentially worthless amps from the 50's and 60's that will be thrown in the dumpster because they are outdated.


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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:07 am
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strings10927 wrote:
Retroverbial wrote:
And you're convinced that 25 or 30 years from now it will still be playing, just as with the Fender amps of yore, right?

Arjay, there's something you just don't 'get'. Technology has moved on, you're living in the past.

Here's what a computer used to look like:

Image

The components were bullet-proof compared to what comes in a computer these days. And there's a really good reason for the decline in quality. After about a decade, a computer becomes essentially worthless, whether it functions normally or not. So why not use cheap components that will just get the job done, since in 8-10 years you'll be throwing it out anyway to make room for the new model with more features, faster, more energy efficient, etc.?


To be honest, I think it's the other way around. I think you're backing up his stance. This is pretty much what he believes the Mustang to be. An amplifier built so cheaply, that it won't last even 8-years. He could be right, maybe not, the verdict isn't out yet.

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:12 am
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upnorth, you are certainly welcome to continue damaging the environment with your old technology. :wink: What I'm saying is, if the question is reliability over 25-30 years for a digital modeling amp, you're simply missing the point.

Jah Soldier wrote:
To be honest, I think it's the other way around. I think you're backing up his stance. This is pretty much what he believes the Mustang to be. An amplifier built so cheaply, that it won't last even 8-years. He could be right, maybe not, the verdict isn't out yet.

I am indeed saying these are made to be disposable. What's so bad about that? If you're looking at my Mustang III and thinking it will last as long as an old school hand made amp from the 50's or 60's, then, as I said, you're not 'getting' it.

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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:39 am
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In the early 60's, just an example, you could buy a Champ for about $60. After 50 years they're still around and sound as good if not better. How could that possibly be affecting the environment?


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Post subject: Re: Did I REALLY just hear that??
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:38 am
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Yeah, I learned my lesson with the GDec. I got an original as a Christmas gift, the "Data Wheel" took a dump after three months and was jumping all over the place, waited two months for Fender to replace it because they don't fix them, added a few bucks and traded up the the GDec 30 because it was supposed to have more features, mostly because I wanted a practice tool for my timing, and that thing is a totally noisy POS with models and presets made for a 10 year old. Now I just play backing tracks through it. I went to sell it only to find out there was a new GDec coming out that made mine worth little more that a cheap Danelectro stomp box. No thanks. I tried the Mustangs out and they just don't work for me. Too much work for a decent tone, too many high tech bells and whistles, modeling that's mediocre, and I find it just doesn't have the dynamics or touch sensitivity of a tube amp. And yeah I played with the stupid "Bias" settings, it's just too weird and the controls just don't react the way I'm used to. For all the young guys I say If you like it great, it's just not my thing. Fender was never known for it's effects except for maybe the Fender Blender. I liked their Fuzz Wah, bit that's about it. You just can't get tons of great effects and modeling at such a low price point. Cheap IC's and PCB's will eventually take a dump.

As far as the environment goes, in my area, we can't even put them at the curb. They have to be dropped off at the electronic recycling facility.

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