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Post subject: Re: U2's Bono & The Edge join FMIC's Board of Directors!
Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 5:54 pm
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I think it could be interesting...

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Post subject: Re: U2's Bono & The Edge join FMIC's Board of Directors!
Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 6:41 pm
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TheKingofPain wrote:
Here's the really disturbing thing. I've noticed in the last couple of years that even the CS is churning out "vintage" models with non-vintage appointments. 51 P bass runs with medium jumbo frets. 57 and later P's with 9.5 radius.


+1

That's what put me off from buying a CS Strat sooner -- most of them are all built with 9.5 fretboards and medium-jumbo fretwire. If I wanted that I'd just go to the Gibson store and buy another Les Paul! The CS guitar I ended up buying was apparently a special order that the customer backed out of once it arrived at the dealer. I found it purely by accident.

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Last edited by Retroverbial on Thu May 29, 2014 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: U2's Bono & The Edge join FMIC's Board of Directors!
Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 6:57 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
TheKingofPain wrote:
Here's the really disturbing thing. I've noticed in the last couple of years that even the CS is churning out "vintage" models with non-vintage appointments. 51 P bass runs with medium jumbo frets. 57 and later P's with 9.5 radius.


+1

That's what put me off from buying a CS Strat sooner -- most of them are all built with 9.5 fretboards and medium-jumbo fretwire. If I wanted that I'd just go to the Gibson store and buy another Les Paul! The CS guitar I ended up buying was apparently a special order that the customer backed out of once it arrived at the dealer. I found it purely by accident.

Arjay

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Yep. If I don't actually go through with ordering a custom teambuilt then I'm going to need to find a used CS bass from at least 4 years ago or more or one that I can actually put my hands on to make sure it's got the correct specs. It's pretty sad that you can't even trust a vintage reissue from the Custom Shop to actually be a vintage reissue.

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Post subject: Re: U2's Bono & The Edge join FMIC's Board of Directors!
Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 10:29 pm
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So will he now be "Mr. Edge"? Sorry, this one name made up moniker stuff kinda gags me out.


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Post subject: Re: U2's Bono & The Edge join FMIC's Board of Directors!
Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 12:44 am
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Miami Mike wrote:
I think it could be interesting...

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Ok, now at least they have a good taste in Tele's... Love that 90's Custom Deluxe The Edge is playing here.. If I found one of those I'd buy one! 8) being its one of his favs, what say we eventually get a reissue of this?:

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Post subject: Re: U2's Bono & The Edge join FMIC's Board of Directors!
Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 4:23 am
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I'm glad to see this myself for a number of reasons. Don't panic folks. Core products that built the brand like Strats & Teles, P and J Basses, Twin Reverbs all are safe.

The comparison to CBS is really not appropriate, nor would I worry about the kids wrecking the company. What the kids need to do is find a way to pad the bottom line so FMIC can whittle down the debt load that weighed down the 2012 Fender IPO stock offering so badly FMIC had no choice but to withdraw it. At that time FMIC debt was $246.2 million. $117 million of that is because FMIC bought out Kaman Music Corp. I do not know what Fender's debt is now, but paying it down is vital if they want to ever try another IPO. Another big issue that hurt the IPO was the borderline insolvency of Guitar Center which is Fender customer number one and almost surely Fender's largest receivables due line item owing FMIC more than any other outlet. The Guitar Center issue is still an issue with GC carrying approximately $1.5 billion in debt. That is 6 times the FMIC debt load. FMIC's debt load is manageable. GC's is staggering. (GC managed to make a $129 million debt repayment due in April of 2013 only by borrowing $100 million of it using inventory as collateral. Their credit rating is now so bad that they can't borrow without collateral. GC's next debt repayment is due in 2017, so they are probably OK till at least 2017, but beyond that is the big issue. This is one reason Fender is now doing their own online sales. If GC goes down in 2017 FMIC would be left holding a large figure on their receivables line they'd never collect. It took me a while, but I figured out why GC keeps opening new stores when they are in such a deep hole. They need more places to put inventory they haven't paid for yet just so they can borrow more money using the inventory that they haven't paid for yet as collateral. GC is a house of cards if there ever was one. Short of a half decade long guitar resurgence not seen since the 1960's, GC on paper is doomed. Nobody will loan GC money without collateral now. Sort of like me. Yet suppliers keep shipping them product and accepting extended payment terms. It's nuts.)

Bono and The Edge joining the FMIC board team may only be a PR play, but I hope it isn't. The music business and the instruments some players use have both gone through some fundamental changes in the past 30 years that FMIC has had control of the big F. And when GC fails (notice I didn't say "IF") the business will change again.

When I was coming up you needed a guitar, bass, drums and keys to make up a basic band and big acts added horn sections. In 2014 it is not unusual to see some successful recording acts performing live with a DJ and a Midi musician firing sequences while there is no guitar, bass, drums or horns in sight. Actually the fundamental business changes started before 1984, but at any rate the plain truth is that if Fender wants to be a leader and not a follower or even a victim of changing times then their future is best insured not by keeping up with industry peers nor buying out every competing brand. Instead the best chance for a secure future lies in staying ahead of trends, or even better starting them which means innovation.

One simple truth seldom mentioned in this forum is the trend over the past 30 years of electric guitar and bass sales suffering a steady demand decline worldwide percentage wise per 1,000 people. This means that when extrapolated for population growth and taking market expansion into account the numbers say new electric guitar demand has been tracking downward for 30 years. In short the guitar boom ended a long time ago. While this demand decline has been gradually ongoing for guitars and basses and the amps they use, the electronic type instruments (electronica) have been gaining steady ground both in studio and live performance use. This is not a 5 year trend, it is a 30 plus year trend. I was hoping it was temporary because I am not an electronica fan, but what happened over the past 10 years is that the shift to electronica has not reversed, but instead dramatically accelerated.

Many future performing professionals coming up now want a full multi-track studio software package on a laptop with Midi sequencers and trigger devices. These are all products Fender isn't currently offering. These people are not shopping for a Strat, Tele, P or J.

Fender also used to make professional grade large (for the day) front of house sound gear. (Live sound was one of Leo Fender's strong suits actually preceding his guitars!)

Electronica and big league FOH sound gear are markets that can obviously be exploited, while Fender's bread and butter core products will soldier on indefinitely.

When they say "Fender Board" that really is the FMIC board which encompasses much more than just the Fender brand. FMIC is a ton of brands other than Fender.

There will continue to be Fender modeling amps. However there will also continue to be Fender Custom Shop instruments and tube amps for pros along with budget guitar and bass gear for beginners. Fender will continue to introduce new product lines and discontinue struggling ones. But the bread and butter guitar gear everyone seems concerned about in this thread will always be around until the brand dies completely.

Outside the USA the Fender brand is broadly respected as one of the unquestionably good things about the USA and has a good reputation. Bono and The Edge have good reputations internationally also, not only as arena filling musicians but also as socially responsible philanthropists with strongly positive PR imaging as guys that can get things done.

I am not a devoted U2 fan, however I do respect their social responsibility on many issues in third world nations that I would never have even heard about if U2 had not used their celebrity to publicize these issues in the west. This global social responsibility can rub off on Fender and do the brand even more good worldwide if FMIC launches or participates in some high profile philanthropic efforts with Bono and The Edge as fronting it for them.

I expect new electronic products such as software, recording interfaces and other associated electronica. I expect more lifestyle branding products far beyond caps, t-shirts and holiday wine.

What I do not expect is a compacting of the Fender universe as we now know it. On the contrary, I am more hopeful for an expanding Fender universe with Bono and The Edge as players. I do not expect anything bad out of them being around at board meetings at all. If anything these guys will bring fresh ideas and even more international input. Music is a global thing and, like it or not xenophobes, FMIC is a global business. There are other international members and other musicians sitting on the FMIC board, but not with such high profiles. This is good. The first FMIC board members with readable media Q-ratings!


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Post subject: Re: U2's Bono & The Edge join FMIC's Board of Directors!
Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 4:40 am
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:arrow: I like Brother Dave's bottom line of "This Is Good". His reasoning is sound reguarding the future of FMIC, and I agree +1111! 8)

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Post subject: Re: U2's Bono & The Edge join FMIC's Board of Directors!
Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 5:33 am
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I have nothing but respect for Dave, but I disagree. Fender has really dropped the ball in the last few years on every single line when it comes to showing respect for the heritage instruments. Roback? Bono, and Edge? I don't see them changing that. The reality is that even the Fender Custom Shop craps all over the legacy at this point. Putting out runs of 57 and 58 Precision basses with modern radius necks, and 55 Precision basses with "stacked" coils. Those aren't true to the model year. So if the people who should be guarding Fender's legacy don't give a damn. What makes you think these people will?

This is just the next step in a downward slide. This has been a steady movement over the past few years at every price point. More uniform approach with an eye to modern (cheaper) parts. Look at the ADE. "Vintage Style" instruments with poly finish, and does anyone really think you're getting the vintage wiring harness with those? You're just getting the pups soldered to a modern tone circuit. "Vintage" style over vintage substance.

This is the future. Bizarro world. Where when you want a Fender built like a Fender you're going to have to go to the Custom Shop and pay extra for vintage appointments. Where buying a Fender off the wall is no different than buying any other guitar off the wall because they're all the same. Probably built with the same parts in the same factories. In an effort to keep up with all the other bloated corporations selling junk they will become one. Instead of looking at what made them great. Don't get me wrong. I get that there's a market for modelling amps, and what not. Though all those things seem to go in cycles. Remember "Keytars"? Well they're making a comeback, too. However, usually things seem to settle back to ground after a decade of excess. It did in the 70's with punk. Again in the 90's. It's all just a cycle.

The FOH argument is a great one, though. This is something I personally would LOVE to see Fender step back into the fray on. There are tons of companies putting out straight up junk right now. Then there are a few putting out really quality gear that costs an arm and a leg. I think Fender's Ensenada Plant is perfectly poised to fill that niche right in the middle. Putting out a "workingman's" line of giggable Live Sound that is both affordable to the working musician, but also dependable enough to last. Let's face it. The "Passport" options just don't cut it for a band.

As far as Bono and Edge. I actually really like much of U2's old catalogue. The Unforgettable Fire is one of my favorite albums. They aren't where they are by chance or luck. They're damn good at what they do. Also, I'm sure they have love for the brand. I just wonder what the prices on those Chinese Fenders will look like after Bono does a factory tour? Given that he's such a fan of "the people" I wonder if that will extend to when it might hurt his wallet.

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Post subject: Re: U2's Bono & The Edge join FMIC's Board of Directors!
Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 5:37 am
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brotherdave wrote:
I expect new electronic products such as software, recording interfaces and other associated electronica. I expect more lifestyle branding products far beyond caps, t-shirts and holiday wine.


I have no doubt, but I don't think that's a good thing. When companies change from selling their own products to selling a brand, with design and production by others, the value of the brand gets diluted.
One thing is to use contract manufacturers, but another thing entirely to use ODMs, and simply put the Fender name on an item designed, manufactured and QCed by others.

We've seen this already (like tuners and earplugs stamped with "Fender" which can be had for far lower price if buying the same products from someone else), and what it does is equate the Fender brand name with "overpriced import junk".

brotherdave wrote:
What I do not expect is a compacting of the Fender universe as we now know it. On the contrary, I am more hopeful for an expanding Fender universe

That would be good, if Fender themselves researched, developed, patented and prototyped the new products, which would then become the new standards that musicians would want even 50 years down the road. But that's a big "if" there. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. It's much cheaper to have a far east company design an amp for you than doing it yourself. It also cheapens the brand name, and thus is, in my opinion, short-sighted.

What do I think Bono will bring? Perhaps a drive to build an African factory?
What do I think the Edge will bring? Nothing, cause he's too busy being on other boards, and playing.
A (Fender)RED branded guitar, perhaps? Nah, too many religious right Fender fans would be against it.


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Post subject: Re: U2's Bono & The Edge join FMIC's Board of Directors!
Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 3:59 pm
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I like your post brotherdave, I agree with a lot with what you said but I do think in a 'utopian' Fender, a lot of what you said would ring true in the sense of direction the company would (&should) take. Perhaps I think you would be far better off on the board than what Edge & Bono are as you do sound like you have good knowledge there :)

To me, it's nothing more than a PR move to regain confidence in the business, perhaps to gain more money or investors, who knows.. It would've been far better to put people who actually know the business or have some pretty ground-breaking creds to their name..

FMIC brands downscaling are a result of their own mismanagement. Treading on eggshells, they didn't want any of the products in all of their brands cannibalising any of the other Fender products. What they should have done is run them as structurally entirely separate businesses. But instead they turned Ovation and Guild into cheap Chinese brands in favour of hoping to launch fender into the premium acoustic limelight. It would have made sense to put Guild into it IMO. These brands were once remembered for great quality- now they will probably be made in the same contracted factories that make Takamine G & D series, Yamaha etc... It would be a hard row getting the rep back on those guitars now I don't ever see them being made in the USA in the future now. I don't want the same to happen to their other brands however. Further Downscaling in my opinion, is inevitable considering what's in store for their top customer. Which as I also agree why they have subscribed to online selling.

But it's not all about being the biggest fish in a small pond. It was great in the 90's because they were being the best Fender that they could be and it worked. It's good to make purchases, but they haven't been smart ones. Instead they should've bought companies like Schaller or Gotoh etc.. DOD (when it was around) or Digitech.. If you look at the aquisitions that Apple are doing, they have been smart ones that will grow the business instead of what fender have been doing to buy out their competition & becoming lazy in the R&D dept. they should be setting trends, and making cool stuff for they working musician. As an example- There's over 150 lines of the Stratocaster alone, and nothing grabs my attention. I may represent myself, but that's echoed in my age demographic. Most of the products are aimed at the older musician and not where it really counts. And I ain't that young anymore either. artists endorsed are unrecognisable to the youth- they don't know Clapton, or Cray, or Vaughn or even John5 is not as well known these days.. Duff Mckagan, Eric Johnson or Sting and Buddy Guy- ask your teenagers who these people are :wink: because I had to search most of these people myself once upon a time (except for Clapton)

What I have asked for in the past, has led to being pointed in the opposite direction of one of their other companies (charvel) and saying 'take one of those instead..' Instead of a recognised indication that hey- there could be a demand for XyZ said products. Lol even in the Charvel camp, they don't like what's there anymore- weird guitars from the east that the fans don't even class as true Charvel, no 'Wildcards' or limited runs that they were promised and the bright metallic colours that Charvel were famed for have just turned into what you can get on any other Stratocaster. :roll: it won't be too long and that company will turn into another Guild or Ovation

I agree with the FOH thing too, and Fender need to start innovating new ideas and start listening to the people who pay their wages. But first they need to see if they can get themselves out of the hole that they are in.

And if Bono had anything to do with it, we probably wouldn't see much from China anymore.. But fender just 'contract', they don't own any plant or equipment in China- which is a very cliche that I'm sure bono has heard a lot in the past also..

In my opinion, it would make better sense building squire in either Mexico or Japan again.. Yeah the prices would be higher, but Squiers in my day weren't cheap and Fender should leave the crap to the companies that make them instead of fighting them on price with the cheap bullet Squiers that tarnish the brand

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Post subject: Re: U2's Bono & The Edge join FMIC's Board of Directors!
Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 11:45 pm
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This is what I meant by PA being a strong point of Leo Fender's early days. This photo actually precedes Fender making guitars.


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Post subject: Re: U2's Bono & The Edge join FMIC's Board of Directors!
Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 1:02 am
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brotherdave wrote:
This is what I meant by PA being a strong point of Leo Fender's early days. This photo actually precedes Fender making guitars.


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+1

Radios, Victrola phonographs, PA systems, pretty much anything with an amplifier and Leo was *the* man in SoCal.

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Post subject: Re: U2's Bono & The Edge join FMIC's Board of Directors!
Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 4:09 am
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brotherdave wrote:
This is what I meant by PA being a strong point of Leo Fender's early days. This photo actually precedes Fender making guitars.


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I know exactly what you meant. Fender still does that with the Passport system. One of the local DJs has one and it's really nice. For public speaking they are a bit pricey, but you're definitely getting quality. However, with everyone so eager to embrace "the future". This is one area where Fender could actually make some solid progress, imo. Right now your choices are basically moderately priced low end junk, or high end, high dollar quality systems. Fender I think has the ability to deliver high quality reasonably priced working musician level systems. Mains, Monitors, Mixers and the like. I think the Ensenada plant is more than capable of delivering on that. Had the instrument side of the business not become the mainstay. Would Fender have become a leader in PA equipment? Recently they had partnered with VW on car audio systems. I don't think that was quite as commercially successful as they would have liked, but it certainly might have fallen in with something Leo might have liked to work on. Also, I had a chance to hear one of those systems while my girl test drive a Bug. It was pretty sweet.

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Post subject: Re: U2's Bono & The Edge join FMIC's Board of Directors!
Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 5:46 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
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:roll:

Arjay


+1

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Post subject: Re: U2's Bono & The Edge join FMIC's Board of Directors!
Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 5:49 pm
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Perhaps a large swag of fender gear will go to the Edge's Music Rising charity.. Probably Invoiced in Amsterdam :lol: maybe that's what's behind it all...

I'm still baffled.

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