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Post subject: Re: Soooo apparently this happened...
Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 7:42 pm
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It seems folks think these changes will lead Fender in an all one direction or another. If Fender is smart, they will not abandon what has lead them to success. Guitar and amp choices are as personal as the strings you put on them for each player. There is a lot in Fender's past that should still keep it's place within their future.

They have also made some additions into that mix with trying newer technologies. I think that holding on to both, the proven past and having new technology options as well is the obvious way to go. I find it hard to believe that Fender wold abandon what has built their name and still in demand.

I don't know anything about Bono's philosophy on instrument tech so I find trying to predict what he will do illusive to my mind. What I find troubling about that appointment is his lack of business skills. And the Edge is a a huge gear guy. But I don't think that he doesn't appreciate how older tech can fit into a modern rig.

We'll have to see how it plays out. It could be good news for Mustang Amp fans who fear that Fender may abandon the line.


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Post subject: Re: Soooo apparently this happened...
Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 7:13 am
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TheKingofPain wrote:
GilgaFrank wrote:
TheKingofPain wrote:
Bono


ugh



Agreed, and don't get me wrong. I like U2, and the Edge. However, I really don't want to have to listen to sanctimonious speeches from Bono at every Fender event from here on out.
.


Sanctimonious is a kind way to put!

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Post subject: Re: Soooo apparently this happened...
Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 10:02 pm
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I've made the mistake of debating technologies before so I won't do that. All I can say is my ears do not hear much difference between solid state and tubes. I hear more difference between a 10" speaker vs a 12" speaker than I ever heard between tubes vs solid state. Not saying one is better than the other - making no assertions at all. Just sharing what my feeble ears tell me. Given that, I could never justify the added expense of a pro quality tube rig.

Having said that I must confess that I love the old fender tube amps. I've come dangerously close to purchasing a '64 Princeton Reverb a couple of times but haven't pulled the trigger yet. But I am motivated by the History, Americana, and Vintage beauty - not because I think the tone is worth what those old amps bring.

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Post subject: Re: Soooo apparently this happened...
Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:28 pm
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Some people may have gotten the mistaken impression that I don't like progress-nothing could be farther from the truth.I fully appreciate that progress is quite necessary.What I don't like or more correctly what I fear is that the old tried and true models and production methods will be totally abandoned in the name of progress.There is plenty of room for both to exist side by side and both can remain lucrative money makers for Fender.There are still those both old and young who appreciate the old bare bones vintage style guitars and the old blackface,tweed and silverface amps yet also recognize that the newer hybrid,computer and MIDI compatable amps and newer synth guitars etc. are an essential part of todays music.I would never stand in the way of progress and I even have 2 hybrid amps myself as well as several digital pedals and rackmount effects and MIDI compatable keyboards,but I still prefer to hear the warm, rich,organic analogue tones of one of my old L series Fenders and my '69 silver face Bassman or '66 Traynor Guitarmate.

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Post subject: Re: Soooo apparently this happened...
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:14 am
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cvilleira wrote:

Sanctimonious is a kind way to put!


:wink:

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Post subject: Re: Soooo apparently this happened...
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:47 am
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NJ_WorshipLdr wrote:
It seems folks think these changes will lead Fender in an all one direction or another. If Fender is smart, they will not abandon what has lead them to success. Guitar and amp choices are as personal as the strings you put on them for each player. There is a lot in Fender's past that should still keep it's place within their future.



You are correct in your assessment that Fender would be wise to hold onto what made them great while exploring and exploiting new technologies and markets. Nobody is arguing that. However, what a lot of us are getting at is that many of their recent moves points to an abandoning of those older vintage models, and the market that wants them. This is being done in favor of "vintage style" over vintage substance. Fender is in the business of making money. Unfortunately making money off selling a lot of junk is easier than making money off selling some real quality pieces. That's just a reflection of the culture.

I've got no issue with Fender exploring new technologies and appealing to the people who like them. I don't think anyone here does, either. However, there has been a move away from vintage specs when it comes to instruments. Even instruments sold as "vintage style". Even at the Custom Shop level. I think what a lot of people here are worried about is that 5 years from now we'll all be looking at a Fender company that honestly looks no different than any other modern guitar company. With modern spec instruments and amps mass produced with inferior materials and sold as "the real thing".

The American Vintage series ending and it being relegated to Custom Shop only gear. Meaning that if you want a Fender made like a Fender. You'll need to pay boutique prices for it. Now, as a fan of the Single Coil Precision Bass that is already a reality for me. I'm just trying to give you all fair warning. This is already a reality for some of us. You can think "That'll never happen to the Tele, or Strat.". However, most people who say never end up being proved wrong by time.

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Post subject: Re: Soooo apparently this happened...
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:20 am
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TheKingofPain wrote:
It's funny you mention the Mustang 3 and tube amps. Because our guitar player owns a Mustang 3 and he just upgraded to a Blues Junior. If you can't hear a difference between them then you're right. It's definitely not worth it to you. However, the difference in tonal quality is clear. Especially in the room with the amp. I left tubes behind almost 10 years ago when I sold my 74 Bassman 100. I've been gigging my 550X since then, and I can assure you that when it came out it was "The Future" and honestly there isn't a company out there making a hybrid that sounds better to this day. It's a killer rig. I have never, ever had a single maintenance issue with it and at 23lbs it's a hell of a lot lighter than my old Bassman. The tone it gets is awesome. Straight up.

HOWEVER, it still lacks the dynamics of a full tube rig. You can throw all the digital smoke and mirrors at it you like. If you're in the room in a club. The difference is clear. Even from a high end hybrid to a tube head. Much less the Mustang to a Junior. The modelling settings are super cool, and my guitarist was actually contemplating on getting rid of it and I told him he was crazy. If I was a guitarist I could definitely see how an amp like that would be a handy tool for at home practice. Want to try out an effect, but not actually have to buy it? There ya go. Want to get a rough idea what your guitar would sound like through different kinds of higher end amps? There ya go. These things are GREAT. Especially for musicians just starting out and exploring all the soundscapes available. Let's face it. To guitarists the list is nearly endless.

All that being said. I still miss that Bassman 100. Even though it had it's temperamental issues. Even though there was no built in DI. Even though I had to lug around a kick mic to mic my cab at really loud gigs. Still. It sounded and responded better than anything else I have ever played. Including an SVT. Much less a Rumble. Don't get me wrong. Rumbles are quality made for the price point they are at and have been for a long time. The Ensenada Plant makes killer affordable amps. You are certainly getting your money's worth.

I don't consider Fender basically pulling a Sony on Line 6 being a success. It just shows they have enough money to throw at a weak market to strong arm it. Yay. Meanwhile, there are plenty of holes in the Fender line where quality products are concerned. Yet they're shutting downing companies that churn out import gimmicks to entry level customers. That's not really setting the standard. That's just running the competition out of town. Whatever they can't shut down. They buy out. Then shut it down. That's modern big business 101. Yet, that hasn't really lead any industry into putting out better products.


I agree. To my ears tube amps do sound better and respond differently and dynamically than SS amps. With SS amps, I seem to have to work harder at getting a good sound then it just doesn't respond the same. My six watt 74 Champ kick the snot out of my 30 watt GDec, or my Guild Four. I run the Guild Four through a 112 extension cab. Also when you push a SS amp with no effects, it doesn't really get better sounding. I find the distortion harsh and brittle as opposed to smooth, creamy and responsive. I find the digital effects and modeling pretty much lacking too. I'm pretty much an analog guy. Every effect I build is pretty much analog based. I build my amps and effects now. Mostly because I enjoy it, and because I can make a copy of a historic piece of gear that I pretty much don't want to spend a huge amount of money on.

Tube amps today will not be as reliable mostly because of the way tubes are manufactured today. I doubt any current tube on the market will last as long as the old RCA, GE, Phillips tubes of the past. Those tubes were manufactured to military specifications and had to be reliable under all kinds of conditions. I got 25-30 years out of many of my tubes.

But when the day is done. Play what makes you smile. :wink:

With Fender as a company, I was a huge fan, but I don't like the direction the company's going. Too many corners are cut for profit and QC is very poor IMO. Too many bells and whistles in both the amps and guitars. An amp shouldn't be handed to a person DOA. Years ago, the dealers used to unbox the amps, try them out and then put them on the floor. Every amp I ever bought came off the floor.

And before this turns into something nasty, it's only opinion's between friends. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Soooo apparently this happened...
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:34 am
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63supro wrote:
Years ago, the dealers used to unbox the amps, try them out and then put them on the floor. Every amp I ever bought came off the floor.


+1000000

I can recall buying a new Fender amp, taking it directly to a gig, and playing it with no issues whatsoever. No tube rolling, no idle-bias adjustment, no speaker swap, nothing. It played great and sounded great, and continued to do so for the following ten, twelve, or even fifteen years. THAT is the level of reliability and performance that built the Fender name and company. Not today's bells, whistles, flashing lights, cardboard cabinets, designer tolex, or glow-in-the-dark grill cloth.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Soooo apparently this happened...
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:21 am
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The quality of yore with the possibilities of today would have been nice. Double blind ABX tests as well as durability tests where product lifespan is measured in "generations" and not "board meetings".

But it won't happen, because the buyers seem polarized into consumerists who go for bells and whistles, and reactionaries who abhor change.


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Post subject: Re: Soooo apparently this happened...
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:01 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
+1000000

wow, that's a lot of 'plus'. :shock:

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Post subject: Re: Soooo apparently this happened...
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:10 am
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Care Arjay, the "+" police are on duty again. :roll:

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Post subject: Re: Soooo apparently this happened...
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:20 am
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63supro wrote:
Care Arjay, the "+" police are on duty again. :roll:


Justifiably goring someone's sacred ox is of no import to me.

If the result is better-made gear for musicians of every caliber, such criticism can only be regarded as constructive.

Reliable equipment = loyal customers

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Soooo apparently this happened...
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:35 am
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Arlay, I agree 1,000%. Yeah strings, that's a really high percentage too. :shock:

I was all things Fender. Amps, guitars, picks, strings and I still even have an old Fender Fuzz Wah. :lol: Not anymore though. The strings were the first thing to go. I have more allegiance to the CBS amp era than this current one. It's all going the trouble prone bells and whistle route. The simpler the better. Reliability hinges on simplicity. Leo knew that, but the new crop of suits in marketing don't. What cracks me up is going to a venue and seeing someone with a pedalboard hooked up to a Mustang amp. :lol: I've seen it more than once too, not just the Mustang amps, but Line 6 too.

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Post subject: Re: Soooo apparently this happened...
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:24 pm
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I like several of the newer amps at first blush, but when I dig a little deeper...

They aren't even built as well as the amps built 20 years ago. I have a '63 reissue Vibroverb (made in 1992) that has never given me problems (outside of normal tube replacement and blown speakers--which only blew after playing it non-stop for ~10 years)...I know that it's not equal to an original pre-BS era amp or even the later CBS Silverface creations, but it's been a great-sounding and dependable amp that I've used without backup since 1992.

I don't have the same faith in the reliability of the current (blackface and silverface) reissues, nor do I think they sound as good (out of the box) as my Vibroverb did back when it was new. I can't scientifically give you evidence that my 22 year old reissue is better than the current crop, but my intuition says the new ones wont be as durable or reliable.

Although I have several friends who (very ably) use the Hot Rod series of amps, the first couple of generations of those amps weren't very reliable, and once again, they just don't sound as good as my Vibroverb.

As far as the Pawn Shop series, those are cute little one-dimensional tools for bedroom/garage practice and a stepping stone to a "real" tube amp...which is sad, because these have the potential to be something comparable to a cool/funky Silvertone/Dano small tube amp from the 1960's...but the cheapness of the components make me cringe and prevent me from buying one, even for a knockabout little toy.

Don't get me started on the disposable G-Dec and Mustang toys...my old 1st-generation Line 6 POD sounds better.

I'm glad I found "my amp" years ago, but if I ever "have" to replace it, I'm probably going Grammatico or Dr. Z...the difference in price will be more than made up by the peace of mind that the amp will not end up in the shop for many, many years.

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Post subject: Re: Soooo apparently this happened...
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:42 pm
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63supro wrote:
What cracks me up is going to a venue and seeing someone with a pedalboard hooked up to a Mustang amp.

Perhaps this will put things in perspective:

At the time that I purchased a Mustang amp, my budget was $0, plus some gift certificates and gift cards that I had been saving which added up to pretty much $350 on the nose.

Can anyone tell me how my $350 would have been spent better on an amp, taking into consideration that since the purchase I have played outdoor gigs (un mic'd) and at least one fairly large venue where the sound people opted not to mic the amps? Which $350 tube amp would have gotten the job done?

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