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Post subject: Re: Is establishing melodies a big part of writing music?
Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 8:10 am
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Think Floyd wrote:
For me, the lyrics and melody are like inseparable identical twins; they're "born" at the same time. I just can't imagine how someone could add lyrics to an already completed piece of music. You'd have to force the lyrics to fit a predetermined melody; it just doesn't sound natural!


I'd say it's easier to create lyrics for a melody than the other way around. For one thing, you have far more words than notes to choose from, and the words also let themselves be expanded and bent over multiple notes, while the opposite seldom is the case - while you can sing "di-i-i-amonds", you generally can't expand a bar from 4 beats to 5 just because you have a long word.

Anyhow, I consider singing to be just another instrument. A fairly good one, but still just an instrument.


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Post subject: Re: Is establishing melodies a big part of writing music?
Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 4:25 pm
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Jericho-79 wrote:
Hey everyone. I own a lot of U2 and Green Day CD's. And I've read the liner notes for every one of those CD's.

In almost all the liner notes, the songwriting credits are denoted as "Lyrics by Bono, Music by U2" or "Lyrics by Billie Joe, Music by Green Day".

When it says "Music by U2"- Does it mean that the band created all the melodies, riffs, hooks, harmonies, and chord progressions while composing the music itself?

In other words- Is developing melodies a large part of writing music?

Thanks guys!


This seems to be a pyramid scenario in which the OP ( the top of the pyramid) pretends to have no knowledge of the topic and the latter post(s) (bottom of the pyramid) supplies and supports the OP with opinions that are viewed as facts by the common observer(s). Classic Internet Forum Rigging. :roll:


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Post subject: Re: Is establishing melodies a big part of writing music?
Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 5:01 pm
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JimRussellMills30! wrote:
Jericho-79 wrote:
Hey everyone. I own a lot of U2 and Green Day CD's. And I've read the liner notes for every one of those CD's.

In almost all the liner notes, the songwriting credits are denoted as "Lyrics by Bono, Music by U2" or "Lyrics by Billie Joe, Music by Green Day".

When it says "Music by U2"- Does it mean that the band created all the melodies, riffs, hooks, harmonies, and chord progressions while composing the music itself?

In other words- Is developing melodies a large part of writing music?

Thanks guys!


This seems to be a pyramid scenario in which the OP ( the top of the pyramid) pretends to have no knowledge of the topic and the latter post(s) (bottom of the pyramid) supplies and supports the OP with opinions that are viewed as facts by the common observer(s). Classic Internet Forum Rigging. :roll:


I'm going to to ask you one time only Jim, please stay off of this Forum.

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Post subject: Re: Is establishing melodies a big part of writing music?
Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 6:48 pm
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One of the best song writing teams IMHO is Morrissey and Marr of the Smiths. Morrissey would create his incredible lyrics and Johnny Marr would come up with a melody that after you heard the song you'd be sure that no other melody would suit the song. A classic example of their ability to click perfectly in composing a song is one their classic "How Soon Is Now?" Morrissey's deep brooding lyrics are perfectly complimented by Marr's tremolo drenched chugging guitar and his eerie droning reverb heavy slide guitar that comes in at regular intervals throughout the song.I don't think that anyone could ever come up with a melody with such brilliant orchestration that could suit Morrissey's lyrics any better than Johnny's brilliant effort.I have all studio albums that the Smith's did and also have alternate takes of many of their songs,in my mind only Johnny Marr could come up with the suitable melodies for that stage of Morrissey's writing. They were a glowing example of a perfect musical pairing.

My best buddy and I used to collaborate on songs many years ago and play them in some of the bands we played in together.We shared songwriting duties in a way that each of us would write our own lyrics and melody but then we would both work on the arrangements of the songs-sometimes a song would end up way different than originally done in the demo but the lyrics and melody would remain unchanged.That was really an incredibly enjoyable process going from a simple demo with guitar and vocals or piano and vocals and develop it into a well orchestrated song.Over the years with family and day job commitments our songwriting collaborations just petered out,but at the time it was terrific fun.

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Post subject: Re: Is establishing melodies a big part of writing music?
Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 11:42 am
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Hey guys. OP here.

What about a song's chord progressions, rhythm, harmonies, riffs, and hooks?

Are those aspects derived from a melody? Or is it the other way around?


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Post subject: Re: Is establishing melodies a big part of writing music?
Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 1:02 pm
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Ceri - exactly. Sometimes it could take a year or two before a guitar line popped in my mind and was suited perfectly for some lyrics.
I also agree with you, Think Floyd, writing lyrics based on music seems like forcing and limiting lyrical creativity to make something up to me. I've only written lyrics based on the music if I translated a song in English or in Slovene from English (normally my own songs). Otherwise, like you said, lyrics and the melody are born at the same time in my mind as well.
But I can safely say I am a lot more talented as a songwriter than a guitar player. I never needed to put nearly as much work and effort into learning how to write songs than I did into learning guitar :lol:

arth - you are right that there are more words than notes, but if you are a good lyricist and see that a word isn't suited too well to the melody, you can always change that word with a synonym or rearrange the structure in that part a bit.

Jericho - depends really what comes first. If you are like me and a couple others here and write lyrics first and the melody comes in your head along with the words, then yes, the chord progression and rhythm get derived from that. Harmonies, riffs and hooks usually get added after you have the basic strong structure down and derive from the vocal melody and chord progression and rhythm.
But there is no rule - a riff could pop in your head first and you could write out the melody around it and the chord progression around that. And only then write the lyrics. Or you could first come up with a chord progression and then write everything else.

There is no right and wrong way when it comes to writing songs. It's just a matter of what suits you best, what comes the most natural to you. The only piece of advice I could give you that will probably help you in every situation is to never force anything. A song with no specific riff is better than a song with a forced riff that doesn't fit with the rest of the song. Same goes for everything else. If you feel like a vital part of the song is missing, don't rush it. Wait until it comes to you naturally. Don't force it.

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Post subject: Re: Is establishing melodies a big part of writing music?
Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 8:21 am
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Take away the melody from a song and what have you got?



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.Rap !


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Post subject: Re: Is establishing melodies a big part of writing music?
Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 8:42 am
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DonX14 wrote:
Take away the melody from a song and what have you got?

Rap !


Both chanson and blues also use spoken word with a music background.
And then there's music that's instrumental to start with, so if you take away the melody, you certainly won't end up with rap. Surf, classical, Joe Satriani - plenty of good instrtumental music out there.


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Post subject: Re: Is establishing melodies a big part of writing music?
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:34 pm
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Solid Body Love Songs wrote:
JimRussellMills30! wrote:
This seems to be a pyramid scenario in which the OP ( the top of the pyramid) pretends to have no knowledge of the topic and the latter post(s) (bottom of the pyramid) supplies and supports the OP with opinions that are viewed as facts by the common observer(s). Classic Internet Forum Rigging. :roll:


I'm going to to ask you one time only Jim, please stay off of this Forum.

..and I'll second that motion. Rollie (and others) have been very polite in response to your trolling and inanity, even attempted to help and direct you to the answers to your inquiries (most of which you either rejected or ignored).

Please don't insult someone who seems to genuinely want an answer to their questions and inquiries. If you don't understand how "conversations" work, you belong on other websites...may I suggest www.internetforidiots.com ?

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Post subject: Re: Is establishing melodies a big part of writing music?
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:07 pm
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I think this is one of those "Chicken or Egg" questions...there's no real "correct" answer.

In my band, we write together, separately and sometimes both.

For example, the first song my drummer and I collaborated on started out as some stream-of-consciousness lines of poetic prose on his part; he had visited London and came back with a fictional tale of a broke busker with three pounds (£3) to his name...the lines had no structure, half of them didn't rhyme, he had no idea what to do musically, but there was a definite "something soulful" to the incomplete lyrics.

I took some music I had written (for a totally different song), adjusted the meter of his lyrics, made them rhyme and used one of the lines ("I got three pounds in my pocket") as the hook and the intro to each verse and the chorus...

...together, we wrote a great song, but who wrote what?
I definitely wrote the music, but did I really "write" any part of the lyrics, or was it just "adjusting" what was there?
Fortunately, we are very open and honest (as well as close friends), so we agreed to just list it as "written by Drummer/Guitarist-Singer" (not our real names, obviously). Since the main part of the song was started by him, we put his name first.

Also, since I had a completed song that no longer had music, (the lyrics from which I stole the music for "Three Pounds"), it gave me an opportunity to re-visit and re-write a melody; the songs share a similar meter and rhythmic riff, but I changed the bpm, the key and the agressiveness of the song itself, and came up with a song that is sonically similar but different enough to not sound like a re-hash.

We had a similar situation occur later, where I had some good lyrics but no real strong feeling about what to do with them musically. I gave the lyrics to him and said, "Finish this." Two weeks later, I went to the studio and he said, "Add something..."
He had the drums, guitar(s), bass, keyboards and vocals already cut; I added background vocals and harmonica, and we were done.
Interestingly, he couldn't make the lyrics work as originally written; he cut out half the lines in each verse, and made the chorus a bit less wordy...I took the discarded lyrics and created a "reprise" of his version with similar music and the same chorus, except with me singing lead and he singing backup. Those two songs will be the bookends for an album we're halfway through recording.
...and the way we gave so writing credit was this: "Him/Me" on the first version, and "Me/Him" on the reprise version...we're probably never going to make money off of either (or any) of our songs, but we can definitely make sure everybody know who wrote the dang things!

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Post subject: Re: Is establishing melodies a big part of writing music?
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:38 pm
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DonX14 wrote:
Take away the melody from a song and what have you got?



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.Rap !


Well I contend that a lot of "Rap" or better yet "Rap Songs" do have melody in them, whether it's in the verse where the rapping is done or the chorus which is a lot of times sung. You're probably thinking of "Rap" as free style rapping which wouldn't be a song in my opinion. :idea:


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Post subject: Re: Is establishing melodies a big part of writing music?
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:43 pm
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arth1 wrote:
DonX14 wrote:
Take away the melody from a song and what have you got?

Rap !


Both chanson and blues also use spoken word with a music background.
And then there's music that's instrumental to start with, so if you take away the melody, you certainly won't end up with rap. Surf, classical, Joe Satriani - plenty of good instrtumental music out there.


Songs that feature the spoken word have melody choruses or melody somewhere in the music. Same goes for instrumentals, the melody is somewhere in the song for it wouldeth not beath a song withouth the melody. :idea:


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