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Post subject: Re: Fender sold Guild !
Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 12:13 pm
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arth1 wrote:
TheKingofPain wrote:
Which is likely why it's going so well. Perhaps there's something for the management at Fender to learn there. Just because none of them are related to Leo doesn't mean that they shouldn't show the company that same kind of care. If the management really looked at Fender as an investment in a legacy, and not just a way to turn a quick buck things would probably be much better than they are.

Do I have to point out that Leo Fender didn't treat the company as an investment in a legacy, but sold it for a quick buck when he got a good offer?
I'm not saying that there was anything wrong with that, but Leo Fender was a businessman.



Well, there was more to that sale than just money. Everyone knows that. Also, not to be mean, but his later offerings never, ever touched his early work. There are people who swear by Musicman designs and G&L, but I'm not one of them. None of his work after leaving his namesake was worth much of a legacy. All solid work, but nothing in comparison to what he accomplished while running Fender.

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Post subject: Re: Fender sold Guild !
Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 12:22 pm
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arth1 wrote:
TheKingofPain wrote:
Which is likely why it's going so well. Perhaps there's something for the management at Fender to learn there. Just because none of them are related to Leo doesn't mean that they shouldn't show the company that same kind of care. If the management really looked at Fender as an investment in a legacy, and not just a way to turn a quick buck things would probably be much better than they are.

Do I have to point out that Leo Fender didn't treat the company as an investment in a legacy, but sold it for a quick buck when he got a good offer?
I'm not saying that there was anything wrong with that, but Leo Fender was a businessman.


Sure he was. If it was meant to be a Legacy he would have let his family take it over. What amazes me is how not just Fender, but many large corporations in general take a company that's successful, get greedy and ruin it. I've even worked for a few myself. That's why I'm self employed now. Only in my case, we developed the manufacturing procedures, they move the company to North Carolina, not China and remains there today. It has never been the same. They did it for lower wages and benefits.

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Post subject: Re: Fender sold Guild !
Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 1:13 pm
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63supro wrote:
What amazes me is how not just Fender, but many large corporations in general take a company that's successful, get greedy and ruin it.

Nothing amazing there. It's called "investors". Their only goal is to pull out as quickly as possible with as much profit as possible, so they can repeat the process. What they leave behind is none of their concern.

But I won't blame a shark for being a shark. Who I do blame are those who put their 401k into these investment firms, directly or indirectly. Shark breeders who have a conscience, but choose to be ignorant about whence their high return rates come.


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Post subject: Re: Fender sold Guild !
Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 7:38 pm
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There are some very interesting articles on the web about this very thing as it pertains to Guitar Center. They are on that financial tight rope and their balance ain't that great. They could very well end up one of those gutted companies that end up as tax write off for some investment group.
I mentioned in a earlier post in 2012 GC owed FMIC 11 mil, around that same time FMIC was like 250 mil in debt. They then borrowed 117 mill to buy Kaman. More debt. That is why they filled to go public, to raise funds to pay off debt. but their financial rating was so poor they couldn't justify the share price, plus, fender fans weren't all that excited about another publicly owned Fender.
My point, I guess, is the sale of some parts of FMIC are inevitable to build a viable business plan. The slim down, shape up, and build a great guitar plan.
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Post subject: Re: Fender sold Guild !
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 3:16 am
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I guess there really is something to the old adage that "A new broom sweeps clean." It didn't take long for the new CEO to start to trim the fat-or what he saw as excess weight from the company.I just hope that Cordoba is capable of turning out as good a Guild guitar line as Fender has been doing over the past few years and that they don't farm out the building of the Guild brand to the lowest bidder and turn it into an inferior low budget brand as Gibson had originally done with Epiphone,that would be a sad fate for what has long been a highly regarded guitar brand.I also hope that the new CEO doesn't start cutting out iconic models.With the large number of Strat and Tele models,especially,it wouldn't surprise me a bit if he starts cutting back on the number of "tribute" and "artist" guitars from these lines-for starters.I'm afraid that he'll start doing a slash and burn and start clear-cutting the recently resurrected models such as the Coronado and the new Starcaster reissues before they've really had a chance to become established-or before I've had a chance to buy one.I'm by no means a business man with any financial know-how but I just hope that he doesn't go overboard with his cutting back models etc. in order to boost the bottom line.

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Post subject: Re: Fender sold Guild !
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 5:01 am
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When I got my Strat in 1972, there weren't dozens of variations of the same model. A couple of neck widths, maple or rosewood, trem or hardtail and a few different colors. They were all made in America and they were affordable. There wasn't a vintage market, just used. If you wanted something different, you did it yourself. But wait, now you have the Pawn Shop series. What they have now is insane and I'm sure costly too. Something's got to give and usually with that type of production, quality hits the bricks first. Choices are nice, but I can't keep up with it all and from what I have left of my hearing, there isn't a whole ton of tonal difference between all the variations.

Cordoba doesn't make a bad guitar, just not great ones. Hopefully this will change.

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Post subject: Re: Fender sold Guild !
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 6:27 am
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+1 on the "just used not vintage"
The first Bass I bought was a "used" 1966 jazz. If I only knew then what I know now.
As far as the number of models goes, I think there is plenty of room for some trimming. The pawn shop line would be the first to go. Sometimes less is more. When people think of Fender they think Strat, Tele, basses and down the line from there. Start at the end of that line and work your way back towards the bread and butter and build the best versions of those models.
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Post subject: Re: Fender sold Guild !
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 6:34 am
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guitslinger wrote:
I guess there really is something to the old adage that "A new broom sweeps clean." It didn't take long for the new CEO to start to trim the fat-or what he saw as excess weight from the company.


Corporate sales don't happen overnight. This must have been in the pipeline for some time, including time for negotiations, financing, forecasts, and obtaining acceptance from enough of the private shareholders.
My guess is the exact opposite - this sale is something the new CEO wouldn't have been able to stop if he wanted, without taking major loss and going out faster than he went in.


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Post subject: Re: Fender sold Guild !
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 6:37 am
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456strings wrote:
+1 on the "just used not vintage"
The first Bass I bought was a "used" 1966 jazz. If I only knew then what I know now.
As far as the number of models goes, I think there is plenty of room for some trimming. The pawn shop line would be the first to go. Sometimes less is more. When people think of Fender they think Strat, Tele, basses and down the line from there. Start at the end of that line and work your way back towards the bread and butter and build the best versions of those models.

I beg to differ. Stagnation and hundreds of models that are essentially all the same two guitars is what has made Fender lose momentum. You can't have growth without daring to do something different. They just should get a better name for it than "pawn shop", which has a strong negative connotation to it in many cultures, and also implies "old" instead of "new".


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Post subject: Re: Fender sold Guild !
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 6:57 am
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arth1 wrote:
TheKingofPain wrote:
Which is likely why it's going so well. Perhaps there's something for the management at Fender to learn there. Just because none of them are related to Leo doesn't mean that they shouldn't show the company that same kind of care. If the management really looked at Fender as an investment in a legacy, and not just a way to turn a quick buck things would probably be much better than they are.

Do I have to point out that Leo Fender didn't treat the company as an investment in a legacy, but sold it for a quick buck when he got a good offer?
I'm not saying that there was anything wrong with that, but Leo Fender was a businessman.

Leo sold the company because he thought he was dying and decided to cash in for his wife's sake (so she would be comfortable in widowhood)...it turned out that the nagging infection was able to be cured and then he regretted the decision (this is from what I have read from multiple sources, as well as talking to Dale Hyatt).

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Post subject: Re: Fender sold Guild !
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 7:42 am
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I beg to differ. Stagnation and hundreds of models that are essentially all the same two guitars is what has made Fender lose momentum. You can't have growth without daring to do something different. They just should get a better name for it than "pawn shop", which has a strong negative connotation to it in many cultures, and also implies "old" instead of "new".[/quote]

Nah, there's a limit to everything. The amount of guitar models is ridiculous. That's not growth that's redundancy. They lost their trademark sound. Why do you think they're in so much trouble? They're a jack of all trades now and a master of none. And a pretty low quality none too.

They just released the SF reissues and they're plagued with problems. How many years did the HRD series have the same issues over and over before they did something about it? What did it cost them two bucks an amp? How about putting some of that money into R&D as well as field testing before releasing a new product? I have no problem with PCB's but the cheap components and lack of craftsmanship is killing them. Even with the lousy lead dress in the 70's those amps were rock solid reliable. My Twin went over 30 years before it saw the inside of a repair shop and that was just for routine maintenance. All I ever did was replace a tube now and again. It never failed me on stage even once.

So many of these manufacturers are stepping backwards. Martin Guitar has been around since 1833 and have a lot of models, but it took them 180 years to do it. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Fender sold Guild !
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 11:37 am
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I think its a good idea for Fender to sell off some of these outfits. I have said this before. The US economy is in the toilet. Actually its an economic depression, but most of the talking heads on TV and government will not admit it. What we have is an economy propped up by massive printing of paper dollars that is softening the fall. The stock market is pumped up with Federal reserve money. We don't have food lines only because people have EBT cards and they don't have to line up at soup kitchen. If GC is in trouble then you know things are bad. But then there is a glut of instruments out there dumped off by out of work folks hocking ther strats and teles for food.

Lots of companies are being faced with these decisions. Quit blaming the Fender people. It's just an economic reality. I would think ultimately they will have to pair down the line of Fender guitars. Cut some of the less popular models.

Of all things I sure hope the American Standard survives.

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Post subject: Re: Fender sold Guild !
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 12:20 pm
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Screamin Armadillo wrote:
arth1 wrote:
TheKingofPain wrote:
Which is likely why it's going so well. Perhaps there's something for the management at Fender to learn there. Just because none of them are related to Leo doesn't mean that they shouldn't show the company that same kind of care. If the management really looked at Fender as an investment in a legacy, and not just a way to turn a quick buck things would probably be much better than they are.

Do I have to point out that Leo Fender didn't treat the company as an investment in a legacy, but sold it for a quick buck when he got a good offer?
I'm not saying that there was anything wrong with that, but Leo Fender was a businessman.

Leo sold the company because he thought he was dying and decided to cash in for his wife's sake (so she would be comfortable in widowhood)...it turned out that the nagging infection was able to be cured and then he regretted the decision (this is from what I have read from multiple sources, as well as talking to Dale Hyatt).



Yup.

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Post subject: Re: Fender sold Guild !
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 3:02 pm
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TheKingofPain wrote:
Well, there was more to that sale than just money. Everyone knows that. Also, not to be mean, but his later offerings never, ever touched his early work.

Yep, most of his designs that he created as a consultant to Fender (after the sale to CBS) never reached the status of his earlier (Tele, Strat, Precision) creations.

Quote:
There are people who swear by Musicman designs and G&L, but I'm not one of them. None of his work after leaving his namesake was worth much of a legacy. All solid work, but nothing in comparison to what he accomplished while running Fender.

Everybody here knows I own (and love) two vintage G&L guitars...a 1980 F-100 and a 1983 Nighthawk; I've also owned other vintage G&Ls (198? SC-2 and another 1983 Nighthawk).

**Note: I'm using the term "vintage" loosely here; since these instruments were built in the early years of the company, and these instruments are now over 30 years old, I feel the term applies. I wouldn't necessarily call a Fender from the same era "vintage."

As with any musical instrument manufacturing company, there are good eras and bad eras; within those eras there are good and bad instruments. Not every early G&L instrument was great, and not every later (post-Leo's death, late-90's) G&L was bad. There were some "stinker" designs thrown in there as well (I dislike the designs that were chasing the shredder market, but I think that's more of a personal preference than a bad design).

Having said that, I'm not as enamored with the average G&L as I am the "less" valuable/collectible/historic models of Fender guitars that I own. My Fenders "feel" better, and generally have more mojo/vibe/panache than my G&Ls...and I started out on G&L instruments way before I ever owned a Fender (electric) guitar (my first guitar was a Fender acoustic--more on that later).

I'll freely admit that Fender has lost a step or two here and there; I think the era we're in right now can be reasonably compared to the late 60's/early 70's era of Fender guitars...there were a lot of different/unique/weird designs (and some of them "lesser" in every sense of the word) that were being thrown out there, as well as some aesthetic changes being made to the "bedrock" original instruments Leo made (many of these were supposed to appeal to a different market than their original users).

The results were mixed--we got the cool and desirable Thinline Telecasters, Deluxe Telecasters, Paisley and Floral printed instruments, the Telecaster Bass, and the (early) big headstock Strats. The Jaguar, Jazzmaster, and Bass VI (although all introduced earlier) were becoming sidelined. We got the Fender XII out of this era (which depends on perspective if that was a good or bad thing).

We also got a slew of weirdos and junk, some of which hit their stride in the 70's and early 80's--the Lead I/II/III, the Swinger, the later big headstock Strats, etc.

I think we're in that era--there's some cool things coming out, there's some ideas that aren't working now but might find an audience later (like the use of 1960's and 1970's Mustangs and Jaguars by the grunge artists of the 1990s), and then there's some junk. Time will tell which is which.

Only problem now, will they ever get back on track the way they did in the late 80's/early 90's?

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Post subject: Re: Fender sold Guild !
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 3:10 pm
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very well stated Screamin'


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