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Post subject: Re: Good concept, bad delivery.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 7:59 am
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TheKingofPain wrote:
Good points from both of you. I'll be sure to keep watching this latest Fender offering with interest. Hopefully if enough people take the plunge the options will get expanded.

The format, for all intents and purposes, is a CS concept at a lower price point. It has to lack many of the subtle fine points that a CS build offers. It offers the client a 'one-off' opportunity,[I certainly would prefer a Clapton neck profile on every Fender guitar I purchased], but without the play and compare advantages that shopping around provides. Ceri suggests an interesting evolution of the process. I can think of a host of collateral issues arising out of such a move...to numerous to list here at the moment, and not to the buyer's advantage.

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Post subject: Re: Good concept, bad delivery.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 8:08 am
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ZZDoc wrote:
I can think of a host of collateral issues arising out of such a move...to numerous to list here at the moment, and not to the buyer's advantage.

Oo - I'd love to read the list! :)

Is the end of shops you can walk into and try out guitars one of the items? If so, I totally agree, that would definitely be a huge loss.

Though I've a feeling it probably won't happen. To carry on with the car analogy, today we no longer buy the actual car that's sitting in the showroom, but we still want to go there to test-drive various models and discuss options with a human (or a semi-human, going by my most recent experience...).

What other things, Doc?

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Good concept, bad delivery.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 8:23 am
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Ceri wrote:
ZZDoc wrote:
I can think of a host of collateral issues arising out of such a move...to numerous to list here at the moment, and not to the buyer's advantage.

Oo - I'd love to read the list! :)

Is the end of shops you can walk into and try out guitars one of the items? If so, I totally agree, that would definitely be a huge loss.

Though I've a feeling it probably won't happen. To carry on with the car analogy, today we no longer buy the actual car that's sitting in the showroom, but we still want to go there to test-drive various models and discuss options with a human (or a semi-human, going by my most recent experience...).

What other things, Doc?

Cheers - C


I don't know how pertinent this is to your point, but Carvin has always maintained two brick and mortar stores outside of their factory showroom. The Carvin faithfull have always lobbied for a few more company stores spread around so they could walk in and try certain features before buying. Last week Carvin closed it's two company stores and will rely solely on internet sales.

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Post subject: Re: Good concept, bad delivery.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 8:29 am
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I think the trouble the big box retailers are in is exactly why we are seeing this now. What happens if GC closes? This allows Fender to still reach much of that market and possibly more. Kids and impulse buyers who might never go into the local mom n' pop and deal with salesmen who may only treat you decent if you're in the scene.

Now don't get me wrong. I love my local shop and I still go there for most purchases. IF they can get what I want. However, with the industry being in the shape it's in they aren't huge on ordering higher end gear and having it possibly sit. So they'll stock one American Standard which I wouldn't even play. AVS, CS, or Bassman PRO gear? Forget it.

Honestly, if my local shop could order me a 63 AVS P bass body in nitro Oly White with a mint guard, 58 pick ups, neck and case I'd go there. If the ADE gets there first I'll go there. However, if both can get me that bass I will go local. Because loyalty only goes as far as what I need in terms of the tools I'm after. If my local shop or Fender aren't offering me what I want then I'll just stick with the gear I have until something changes.

However, as it stands the only way to get that bass is to order it through the custom shop which is ridiculous for a bass that I want that can be assembled from all production run parts at less than half the cost. If I'm getting a CS bass. And I will. I'm getting a Single Coil P bass. Know why? Because Fender refuses to offer one in the American Vintage line. You can get a modern spec'd Squier. An import Signature model or go to the CS. Which is kind of a ridiculous hole in the product line. If they offered one in the AVS line I'd already have one. If they offered one tomorrow. I'd order it. No questions asked.

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Post subject: Re: Good concept, bad delivery.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 8:47 am
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Blertles wrote:
If we look at the age demographic of the members of the forum, it may be a good indication that this is the same age demographic Fender have reduced themselves to. Let's face it.. The younger players are playing 'other' brands. So we have ordinary strats...Clapton or SRV clones.everything:

I disagree whole-hearted my with this statement...

I am friends with four younger players (all in their teens), and I am mentoring one of those players...although he plays a style that is the polar opposite to my style, I am able to help him develop his tone.
These young players are playing: Funk/Hip-hop, heavy metal, Americana, and Singer/Songwriter Pop...these players all have differing tonal needs, differing image wants, etc...and each of them are GAS-ing for a Fender. All of them are playing Strats, and Each of them have acquired the best instrument for their budget...so there is the range of a cheap Squier all the way up to a Jimmie Vaughan Strat. Only one of their instruments has been modified (the metal player blocked the tremolo on his "Squier by Fender" Strat).

The girl playing Americana wants a Telecaster, the metal head wants a Jim Root Strat, the hip-hop/funk artist wants a "nicer" American Strat (she's got a MIM Standard), and the singer/songwriter is happy with her JV Strat, but wants/needs a better amp. All of them have Fender amps, except the metal head, who has a cheap Line 6...he's the only one who wants a different brand of amp (a Blackstar).

All these kids, playing Fender guitars and amps, wanting to upgrade to better Fender guitars and amps, in one small town in Texas? I think Fender will succeed in reaching a new market demographic.

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Post subject: Re: Good concept, bad delivery.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 8:53 am
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Ceri wrote:
Is the end of shops you can walk into and try out guitars one of the items? If so, I totally agree, that would definitely be a huge loss....Though I've a feeling it probably won't happen. To carry on with the car analogy, today we no longer buy the actual car that's sitting in the showroom, but we still want to go there to test-drive various models and discuss options with a human (or a semi-human, going by my most recent experience.


Your first point is well-taken and to which I agree. There's also the 'same day walk out' advantage of having the guitar in stock.

With regard to your analogy, the auto industry is most interesting. In the luxury divisions, heavily import driven, most dealerships carry a large inventory of vehicles, most equipped with option packages and finishes, that will satisfy the large majority of clients, many of whom lease, as opposed to purchase. [I don't know that you can purchase a Lexus/Mercedes in the states, without a sun roof.] In most cases, your going to drive that new car within 24-48 hours of purchase. In rare cases, the pipeline might have to be checked to see if a particular color is available and when. If there are issues with the product, there's a dealer to return to.

What then of the online guitar build??? How long the wait for delivery, and what's the recourse for redress of issues. Fender Service Centers...then? Will there be an algorithm and highly skilled techs for the handling of same in a timely fashion? Take a look at the website for the current distribution of same.

And, in the end, if I want a hard tail guitar body routed for Clapton electronics, or sans the rout for the 'board' if I choose to use EMG's, yet with a battery box in the rear, a deep '57 offset waist relief, soft 50's contours, I've got to commit to $5K+ price point. :shock:

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Post subject: Re: Good concept, bad delivery.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 8:57 am
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Drew365 wrote:
Last week Carvin closed it's two company stores and will rely solely on internet sales.

Aha :!: :shock: There ya go :!: :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Good concept, bad delivery.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 9:02 am
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TheKingofPain wrote:
I think the trouble the big box retailers are in is exactly why we are seeing this now.

On the other hand, I know of individual vendors who can't buy Fender because FMIC would only sell large volume houses. In fact, I've been aware for a long time now that one establishment I did business with in the area I relocated from was carrying a preponderance of Gibson as opposed to Fender, because Gibson put the screws to them. They haven't hosted a Fender Road Show in four years now and they were the only one in that region who did.

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Post subject: Re: Good concept, bad delivery.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 10:33 am
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ZZDoc wrote:
TheKingofPain wrote:
I think the trouble the big box retailers are in is exactly why we are seeing this now.

On the other hand, I know of individual vendors who can't buy Fender because FMIC would only sell large volume houses. In fact, I've been aware for a long time now that one establishment I did business with in the area I relocated from was carrying a preponderance of Gibson as opposed to Fender, because Gibson put the screws to them. They haven't hosted a Fender Road Show in four years now and they were the only one in that region who did.



Well I think that's a bi-product of the big box market. Which is failing. It's all fine to say
"we're only going to sell GC numbers, or nothing". When you have the safety net of that GC to sell to. When it's gone you'll sell to who will take you or you won't sell at all. The locals that hung in there will start being more important. Unless of course this ADE thing works. Again, that's what this is about. Fender is testing the waters to see if they can still move the same amount of units by cutting out the middle man. The ADE seems like madness from the outside. However, it's actually the MFG model ideal. One piece flow is true north. Believe me. If Fender can get it's customers to all buy in to a wait time, and 20% restock fee and build to order they'll jump on it. Inventory costs interest and overhead to store it. FG inventory is worse because if the customer disappears you may have to rework it. Keeping it raw, and factoring in your supplier lead times to yours basically turns you into a straight through run. They keep double the lead time in raw materials on hand and build to order. Once rolling the schedule is continually being written. It becomes a dedicated exotics line. The waste would be almost nil. You order your Fender. It shows up a few weeks later. They'll still have the store fronts with the lower end models for the beginners who drag their parents in to buy things for them, and who need to try things for themselves. For the players who have been around awhile and can afford a US made Fender. (and let's face it. That market is drying up quick) They already know what they do and don't like. So it makes sense.

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Post subject: Re: Good concept, bad delivery.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 10:58 am
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It's going to be interesting if GC and it's confederates fail...we're going to be lamenting "the good ol' days" when guitars were so dirt cheap. Without their deep discounts, nobody will HAVE to sell that cheap, and the price will rise significantly.

Having said that, I have a local one-owner/operator store (Competition Music in Fort Worth) I buy as much stuff from as I can--we've been doing business for 18 years or more. He sells mostly used stuff, but he regularly matches or beats GC prices for special order things (like my Shure Super 55 mic and some various pedals)...each time he was able to match or beat their price, except the one time he was 10% higher (I bought it from him anyway)...I have never bought a new guitar from him (I've bought or facilitated the sale of several instruments over the years), but I'd do so the instant I needed one.

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Post subject: Re: Good concept, bad delivery.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 11:04 am
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TheKingofPain wrote:
For the players who have been around awhile and can afford a US made Fender. (and let's face it. That market is drying up quick) They already know what they do and don't like. So it makes sense.

That category of clientele is going to have a more sophisticated needs base. You and I are examples of same given our preferences, which have been stated here and elsewhere in these pages. Hence, the option availabilities are going to have to be broad-based and within an acceptable price point. In the classic model, there was an MSRP and a 'street' price. Though pretty much controlled by the company, the latter could vary based upon time of year and warehouse inventory in terms of needing to move product. With the online algorithm, that will likely disappear.

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Post subject: Re: Good concept, bad delivery.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 11:05 am
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I don't know, I looked at the base price for a P-Bass and for what you get, I just don't think it's worth it at all. It's cheaper just buying a standard model and swapping out the parts you want different. I didn't see anything special here, especially to justify the extra money they tack on to these things.

To be honest, my confidence in this company has gone down the toilet, anyway. At this point, I don't even know if I'll ever buy another Fender product again. They pissed me off that much, and I used to be a huge fan of the band. But not sycophantic like someone here is, though. :P

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Post subject: Re: Good concept, bad delivery.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 11:13 am
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CPL wrote:
To be honest, my confidence in this company has gone down the toilet, anyway. At this point, I don't even know if I'll ever buy another Fender product again. They pissed me off that much, and I used to be a huge fan of the band. But not sycophantic like someone here is, though. :P

There's certainly been a great deal of comaraderie generated through these Forums these past nearly 7 years now, a close relationship with the moderators, and great respect for a product we identify with and connect to many positive experiences over the years. It's a bummer when one is given to understand that this does not appear to be filtering up to the board room. I am reminded of what it meant to the baseball fans of New York City when both the Dodgers and the Giants went west. Unfortunately, I don't think G&L will serve as our version of the NY Mets.

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Post subject: Re: Good concept, bad delivery.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 11:29 am
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ZZDoc wrote:
TheKingofPain wrote:
For the players who have been around awhile and can afford a US made Fender. (and let's face it. That market is drying up quick) They already know what they do and don't like. So it makes sense.

That category of clientele is going to have a more sophisticated needs base. You and I are examples of same given our preferences, which have been stated here and elsewhere in these pages. Hence, the option availabilities are going to have to be broad-based and within an acceptable price point. In the classic model, there was an MSRP and a 'street' price. Though pretty much controlled by the company, the latter could vary based upon time of year and warehouse inventory in terms of needing to move product. With the online algorithm, that will likely disappear.



Yup. It'll be a controlled price list with options and the days of getting a good deal depending on what needed to move will be gone. Which sucks. Also, the days of getting a good deal on a floor demo easily will dwindle. While I'd love to see this get to the point where I'm interested. I'm really skeptical. Personally, I don't mind paying good money for a bass that is exactly what I want. However, this ain't cutting it. It's not even close. If I played modern spec Fenders, though? I'd probably be on this. It's just not where I'd need it to be to move on it.

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Post subject: Re: Good concept, bad delivery.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 4:57 pm
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ZZDoc wrote:
Blertles wrote:
If we look at the age demographic of the members of the forum, it may be a good indication that this is the same age demographic Fender have reduced themselves to. Let's face it.. The younger players are playing 'other' brands....

I'm not so sure. Why do you suppose the Talon failed? I thought that guitar had quite the 'contemporary' look. A former Fender builder has done a tweaked version of the Performer which FMIC might have done. Marketing and public relations are still showing a large number of present day artists playing Fender gear or gear by company owned marques.


Ah, the Talon- or more so, the Heartfield line. Here's a quote from the Heartfield central website that quotes from internal documents within Fender (I'm guessing from late 90's):

Originally the Heartfield line was setup up to be a testing ground for Fujigen’s R&D department - allowing their young design team the opportunity to test new design concepts that otherwise may not be given a chance due to marketing restrictions of their OEM customers. Because this was their original intent and there was not great pressure to generate sales, much of what was developed was without outside evaluation. They simply wanted to make guitars and basses that they felt were on the cutting edge - instruments incorporating ideas that might later prove to be valuable additions to the products that they were making for their OEM customers.

Two and a half years ago Fender was faced with two problems. With the weakening of the dollar the cost of imported product was escalating - the demand for American made was increasing beyond our capacity to produce and the desire for what was now mid to high priced Japanese product was rapidly decreasing - making it difficult to support Fujigen as supplier. Secondly, there was a segment of the market (approximately 25-30%) that was not being addressed by Fender style product. All our previous attempts to penetrate it under the Fender banner had been in vain. One fact was consistent to both of these problems - the Fender name. Consumers felt that since Fender was an American company and an American manufacturer that, above a certain price point, the product should be made in the U.S.. And it wasn’t just a question that only product made in the U.S. would sell in the mid to h high price ranges - other totally Japanese companies, such as Ibanez, were doing quite well selling their products in those price points. It was a question of tradition. Which brings us directly t the cause of the second problem - why couldn’t we sell those other styles of guitars? Tradition.



There also is the reason for the 'made in Japan, assembled in USA' identity crisis guitars. They found it hard to sell import guitars due to the strengthened US dollar. The customers wanted USA made so they removed the 'made In Japan' etc..
I guess also, given that Talons were made in the Fujigen Matsumoto factory where the Ibanez RG was made at the time (my Talon features an Ibanez seriel#) it wasn't in their interests to support this model, nor put them in direct competition with MIJ Ibanez made in the same plant, or produce them to the same scale of production numbers. However, Elan, DR basses are still made there today.
I don't think Fender went in the right direction with that line, but they can still do it better today if they wanted but they won't. But they did better with the American Floyd Rose strats and the Japanese HRR models and Foto Flame lines.. IMO, they shouldn't have messed with the 'Plus, Plus Deluxe, Ultra' line either.

Given the uncertainty of GC, if they indeed fell I wouldn't be surprised if Charvel, Jackson, Guild eventually go down that same path Ovation has, or gets sold to the highest bidder in an attempt to downscale & reduce debt.

Anyways, back to topic :D

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