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Post subject: In blind test, soloists like new violins over old
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:35 am
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It is always interesting to see science challenge myths.

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"Ten world-class soloists put costly Stradivarius violins and new, cheaper ones to a blind scientific test. The results may seem off-key to musicians and collectors, but the new instruments won handily."

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Post subject: Re: In blind test, soloists like new violins over old
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:09 am
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mhowell wrote:
It is always interesting to see science challenge myths.

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"Ten world-class soloists put costly Stradivarius violins and new, cheaper ones to a blind scientific test. The results may seem off-key to musicians and collectors, but the new instruments won handily."

That's all well and good for those who play instruments picked by others, blindfolded.
It indicates that different instruments, when played the same way sound similar enough.

Part of the art of music is that we're human and react differently to different things. Perhaps especially the instrument we play. Would you play a Squier replica the same way as you would a true 1950s/60s guitar? Or would knowing what you hold influence your playing, and help drive your performance to new heights?

As for the science of this study, with that few samples, the statistical confidence level is far too low for it to be useful for drawing conclusions. Which the Marie Curie University are the first to admit, and the press the first to disregard.


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Post subject: Re: In blind test, soloists like new violins over old
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:49 am
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I would like to do this with guitars at the shop sometime. You never know what you may like if you always assume vintage is better or more expensive is better.

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Post subject: Re: In blind test, soloists like new violins over old
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:25 am
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Hi mhowell: amongst violin makers this sort of thing never comes as a surprise.

These kinds of experiments are done frequently in the violin world. Sometimes the results tend in one direction, sometimes the other. Individually, they almost never have enough repetitions to be statistically significant, but taken on aggregate they show that the finest modern instruments and the finest old ones compare closely with one another.

Which, once we put superstition aside, is just what we'd expect.

Cheers - C

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Last edited by Ceri on Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: In blind test, soloists like new violins over old
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:36 am
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Those two annoying blokes at Andertons did a few blindfold tests on Fenders. Not sure it was entirely scientific, given that the guy testing knew what the four guitars were going to be and really just had to guess which one he was holding at the time. And they're in the business of selling as many Fender guitars as they can. So perhaps they were slightly biased.

EDIT: disregard that, wrong video. I think the blindfold test was with Telecasters.

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Post subject: Re: In blind test, soloists like new violins over old
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:46 am
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yodacaster wrote:
I would like to do this with guitars at the shop sometime. You never know what you may like if you always assume vintage is better or more expensive is better.


My take on that is that the guitar you like is going to sound better.
You can't force yourself to like anything, so even if two guitars sound the same when played blindfolded, pick the one you like the most, if you can afford it.


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Post subject: Re: In blind test, soloists like new violins over old
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:34 pm
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arth1 wrote:
yodacaster wrote:
I would like to do this with guitars at the shop sometime. You never know what you may like if you always assume vintage is better or more expensive is better.


My take on that is that the guitar you like is going to sound better.
You can't force yourself to like anything, so even if two guitars sound the same when played blindfolded, pick the one you like the most, if you can afford it.


My point is that if a person, for lack of a better term, is a brand snob, this may open a persons eyes that labels can mean nothing. You never know, the guy who only buys boutique and vintage gear might end up liking a MIM strat.

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Post subject: Re: In blind test, soloists like new violins over old
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:55 pm
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I have always been of the opinion that when it comes to vintage guitars there are so few truly good ones left that the chances of getting one are indeed slim. It is my speculation that the vintage guitars we see on the used market today and in particular the really clean examples are the ones that did NOT have 'the mojo' back in the day. The vintage guitars that are in pristine condition today are still pristine because they did not get played and ended up in somebody's closet for 50 years where time gave them a level of value they did not originally have. The ones that did have 'the mojo' were played near half to death because people didn't want to put them down. They are the ones that went to every gig and every studio session while the duds stayed at home in the closet. Remembering, of course, that QA/QC in those days was hit and miss and there could be significant differences from one guitar to the next. Lots of hand work may seem on the surface to be an indication of quality but it is also an opportunity for inconsistency. The argument that more hand work automatically equals a better guitar is highly debatable. When no two bodies or no two necks are shaped exactly the same the number of variables in what makes a guitar sound great is multiplied exponentially. Same goes for hand wound pickups. What two hand wound pickups have exactly the same winding pattern with regard to where the winds overlap? For that matter who is to say that counting winds manually guarantees each pup will have the same number of winds? Today, we tell people to go into a music store and try as many guitars as they can and pick the one that feels and sounds best to them. Back in the day the importance of doing exactly that was about a zillion times greater. There is a lot of mystique surrounding vintage guitars and 'some' of it is based in fact but most is not. Most of the mystique surrounding vintage instruments is hype and blind faith. Give me a modern consistently made quality guitar with good pickups any day.

Everyone is welcome to their opinion and this is mine.

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Post subject: Re: In blind test, soloists like new violins over old
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:23 pm
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arth1 wrote:
mhowell wrote:
It is always interesting to see science challenge myths.

Click Me

"Ten world-class soloists put costly Stradivarius violins and new, cheaper ones to a blind scientific test. The results may seem off-key to musicians and collectors, but the new instruments won handily."

That's all well and good for those who play instruments picked by others, blindfolded.
It indicates that different instruments, when played the same way sound similar enough.

Part of the art of music is that we're human and react differently to different things. Perhaps especially the instrument we play. Would you play a Squier replica the same way as you would a true 1950s/60s guitar? Or would knowing what you hold influence your playing, and help drive your performance to new heights?

As for the science of this study, with that few samples, the statistical confidence level is far too low for it to be useful for drawing conclusions. Which the Marie Curie University are the first to admit, and the press the first to disregard.

You are absolutely correct. This test is far from statistically significant and does nothing to challenge a genuine personal preference. However, it is good to expose the possibility that personal preferences might be influenced by false pre-conceived notions.

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Post subject: Re: In blind test, soloists like new violins over old
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:24 pm
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arth1 wrote:
yodacaster wrote:
I would like to do this with guitars at the shop sometime. You never know what you may like if you always assume vintage is better or more expensive is better.


My take on that is that the guitar you like is going to sound better.
You can't force yourself to like anything, so even if two guitars sound the same when played blindfolded, pick the one you like the most, if you can afford it.


Quote:
pick the one you like the most


Agreed. That is what matters most.

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Post subject: Re: In blind test, soloists like new violins over old
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:11 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Remembering, of course, that QA/QC in those days was hit and miss and there could be significant differences from one guitar to the next.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.


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Post subject: Re: In blind test, soloists like new violins over old
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:12 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
...What two hand wound pickups have exactly the same winding pattern with regard to where the winds overlap?...


Just a note on "hand wound pups". There is a machine involved to spin the bobbin, and usually a counter attached, it's merely that the tension and overlapping is directed by hand. I agree that things done by hand don't necessarily mean better than that done by a machine. Many things that used to be done by hand were out of necessity, not because it was "better", but just that there were no machines to do it.

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Post subject: Re: In blind test, soloists like new violins over old
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:17 pm
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I found some critical info missing from the Violin comparisons..
Were they playing Stradivari's that were Baroque instruments or were those of the modern design ? Ceri will know what I'm referring to... To those who are puzzled, a Baroque violin versus a modern violin would be like playing a Lute versus a classical guitar say a Ramirez...
This comparison was missing vital info... so the results are dubious..

As far as cheap ... :lol: There isn't a professional caliber violinist that is going to play a violin that didn't cost multiple thousands of dollars. Eastman makes some great affordable violins, but the truth of the matter is that when comparing acoustic instruments, which function on a mechanical basis versus electromagnetic... Many critical factors come into play such as tone woods and construction methodology. Cannot buy those attributes for pennies on the dollar.

No way is a $700 Takamine going to sound like a $5,000 Larrivee, or any custom made acoustic..

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Post subject: Re: In blind test, soloists like new violins over old
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:21 pm
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On a sorta related note: I recently heard a Squier Classic Vibe 50's(pine body version) that sounded better than the rest of the basses on display, including the U.S. Fender's. It had a softness to it that none of the other P basses had. Probably easier for recording. I've gotta get me one!


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Post subject: Re: In blind test, soloists like new violins over old
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:30 pm
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I want a blue one! MD


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