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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:07 pm
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I'm not naturally inclinated toward swimming against the current... and I'm not slammin' you in any way, but your comparison seems more like a Fender Loyalty Oath than an objective comparison.

First, it isn't an Apples-to-Apples comparison... nor can it be.

It's much more an Apples-to-Apples* comparison. :wink:

I make similar comparisons weekly as I own a '67 Fender Deluxe BF in 10/10 condition, a '73 Fender Princeton Reverb SF in 10/10 condition... but also a '13 Peavey Delta Blues 115 in 10/10 condition - and play each one several hours every week.

The Fender BF and SF Amps are, without doubt, superior to the Peavey DB... and any such comparison ends here.

But... The Peavey is rugged, non-vintage, and holds it's own in virtually any genre (minus Metal) that you'd care to force on it.

Realize that ruggedness, non-vintageness and being easily replaced are genuine qualities unto themselves.

I wouldn't even think to haul either of these Vintage Fenders repeatedly in the trunk of my car to Jams or Gigs... if the worst happened, I'd be too hard-pressed to replace them.

But the Peavey DB 115 is common, will take a beating, is easily replaced, and gives a Tone which is at least 97% of what the other two are capable of... Plus neither of the Fenders can match the Bottom End that Peavey 15" Blue Marvel is capable of...

That alone is a quality in... and of, itself !

Far from being the Red-Headed Step-child of my Amp collection, it's actually maybe more of my Go-To Amp of the three.

Is it as 'Good' or as valuable as the other two... absolutely not !

But therein may lie it's value... at least to me... 8)

NO WAY would I discourage someone, out-of-hand, not to research and discover these amps, they're terrific in so many ways... esp. Bang for Buck !!

Cheers!

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Last edited by Lightnin MN on Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:11 pm
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Jah Soldier wrote:
If you haven't done so already, you should try some NOS preamp tubes in yours. I like Amperex or Mullard in mine. Really brings out that crystal clean sound.

You can hear some of the recordings here.

http://m.reverbnation.com/artist/353192

Click on "More songs".. The first 3 songs in that list weren't recorded with the HRDV (and believe me, you can tell). But everything else was.

Great songs and sweet tone. Thanks for sharing the link.

On the the tubes, I dropped some JJ's in from Eurotubes, including an ECC832 in V2 to drop the gain a little and I've been pretty happy but I'll keep Amperex and Mullard in mind.


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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:11 am
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Lightnin MN wrote:
I'm not naturally inclinated toward swimming against the current... and I'm not slammin' you in any way, but your comparison seems more like a Fender Loyalty Oath than an objective comparison.

First, it isn't an Apples-to-Apples comparison... nor can it be.

It's much more an Apples-to-Apples* comparison. :wink:

I make similar comparisons weekly as I own a '67 Fender Deluxe BF in 10/10 condition, a '73 Fender Princeton Reverb SF in 10/10 condition... but also a '13 Peavey Delta Blues 115 in 10/10 condition - and play each one several hours every week.

The Fender BF and SF Amps are, without doubt, superior to the Peavey DB... and any such comparison ends here.

But... The Peavey is rugged, non-vintage, and holds it's own in virtually any genre (minus Metal) that you'd care to force on it.

Realize that ruggedness, non-vintageness and being easily replaced are genuine qualities unto themselves.

I wouldn't even think to haul either of these Vintage Fenders repeatedly in the trunk of my car to Jams or Gigs... if the worst happened, I'd be too hard-pressed to replace them.

But the Peavey DB 115 is common, will take a beating, is easily replaced, and gives a Tone which is at least 97% of what the other two are capable of... Plus neither of the Fenders can match the Bottom End that Peavey 15" Blue Marvel is capable of...

That alone is a quality in... and of, itself !

Far from being the Red-Headed Step-child of my Amp collection, it's actually maybe more of my Go-To Amp of the three.

Is it as 'Good' or as valuable as the other two... absolutely not !

But therein may lie it's value... at least to me... 8)

NO WAY would I discourage someone, out-of-hand, not to research and discover these amps, they're terrific in so many ways... esp. Bang for Buck !!

Cheers!

In all honesty, it's not any kind of loyalty oath. I'm not loyal to any particular brand. I could care less what the brands are. Keep in mind we're not talking about a vintage Fender. It's a Hot Rod DeVille from 1996 (at least I think that's what it says on the board. The resale value in comparison to my particular amps are about even. I paid the same for both anyway. So the value isn't an issue to me. What is, is usability, functionality, versatility, and tone as a whole.

I have to respectfully disagree on one thing though. The Delta Blues really doesn't have more Bass tones than the DeVille. I think it's a common misconception to think that just because a speaker is bigger, it must have more bass tones.

I'll agree that a Delta has more bass tones than a Peavey Classic 30. But not the DeVille 410. And not only does the DeVille have more than enough Bass and can match the amount of the Delta, it's cleaner, tighter and more efficient in the clean and crunch channel. I stand behind that 100%. I wouldn't say that if I didn't just go through them both again today with fresh ears.

Also keep in mind that I did this comparison, and set these amps up in this manner to see if I could try to tube the H&K to have similar tones within its channels. I was really trying to see if the H&K could have a great clean and crunch along with the great distortion channel it's already known for. My personal trifecta that has been elusive with so many other amps. At the end of the day, it's really the H&K that is the victorious one of the three. It delivered everything with flying colors. The new H&K costs over $3,000, and after going through all of this, I can honestly say it's probably worth every penny. So it's really not about bowing my head to Fender in that regard.

If anything, it makes me want to save up for the newer version of the H&K Triamp.

But give me the choice of the HRDV and the Delta, and I'll take the HRDV for its versatility, sound, functionality, and efficiency. It's a better amp in my objective opinion. If the two are of the same value, the HRDV is a much better amp.

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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:39 am
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I can testify that JS is no Fender sychophant...he has guitars, amps and related gear from probably a dozen different manufacturers, and has no problem modifying anything he owns...

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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:09 pm
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Jah Soldier wrote:
I'm not familiar with Orange amps. I've never owned one. But if it has a tank, maybe it's possible to disconnect it while you're playing that style. To my knowledge, it wouldn't be damaging to do that. But I'd check with an amp tech if it's tube driven. I have no clue what would happen to disconnect a tube driven reverb. May be damaging to the amp, may not. I'm sure someone here on the forum knows.

No tank. Talking to an old time Orange user, they do have a bit of reverb style ring (not to be confused with tube ringing) with the sound taking a few ms to die out, and it was suggested it could be reduced by changing a high voltage 220 uF cap between the output tubes and ground to a smaller one.
Trying a 150 uF one shouldn't be too difficult - and if not, there are indeed many good amps out there that should handle my metal experimentation, including H&K, ENGL and GK.

I love the way my Oranges break on my Sputnik overdrive/fuzz, and they really do the British raw sound very well, both dirty and clean, but they just may not be the best for darker metal.


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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:25 pm
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Screamin Armadillo wrote:
I can testify that JS is no Fender sychophant...he has guitars, amps and related gear from probably a dozen different manufacturers, and has no problem modifying anything he owns...


+1 I'm the same way.

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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:02 pm
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63supro wrote:
Screamin Armadillo wrote:
I can testify that JS is no Fender sychophant...he has guitars, amps and related gear from probably a dozen different manufacturers, and has no problem modifying anything he owns...


+1 I'm the same way.

As am I--mostly Fender stuff, but also 2 G&Ls, 1 Epiphone mandolin and 1 Epiphone "Special", 1 Dean Chrome G guitars; Pignose, Fender and Gibson amps; Hohner and Lee Oskar Harps and a half dozen different microphones--harp, recording, live vocals and otherwise...

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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:00 pm
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Since the type of speakers used with any given amp can so adversely or favourably affect the overall tone,I think the best way to test any 2 or more amps would be to use the same speakers for each test,that way you'd have only one variable-the amps.

Using different speakers would mean having two variables, so for instance if one amp had muffled mids and brilliant highs and poor bass response,you couldn't be assured if it was the amp or the speakers if not using the same speakers for each amp.If you got the same results using the same cabinet throughout,you could rest assured that it was the amp and not the speakers.I didn't read all the responses so I don't know if this has been brought up by someone else-my apologies if this post is redundant.

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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:47 pm
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I did think about that. But then I thought "well, this is how these companies wanted to design their stuff to be, test them for what they are." Probably more fair would be to compare the H&K to other amps within its price range. That's why I didn't really set out to try to compare the Fender and Peavey to the H&K. It was more about seeing if the H&K had enough to compare to them. My old Mesa wouldn't have passed that test. This thing has a massive amount of versatility, and this was a good way to find that out.

Since I had the Fender and the Peavey out and setup, Heck, why not see how they stack up to each other? I honestly didn't know the Fender had that good of a crunch channel. So it was a good way to find that out as well.

I should probably see how the Fender high gain stacks up to the H&K. I still have them out. Why not?

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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:08 pm
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guitslinger wrote:
Since the type of speakers used with any given amp can so adversely or favourably affect the overall tone,I think the best way to test any 2 or more amps would be to use the same speakers for each test,that way you'd have only one variable-the amps.

Using different speakers would mean having two variables, so for instance if one amp had muffled mids and brilliant highs and poor bass response,you couldn't be assured if it was the amp or the speakers if not using the same speakers for each amp.If you got the same results using the same cabinet throughout,you could rest assured that it was the amp and not the speakers.I didn't read all the responses so I don't know if this has been brought up by someone else-my apologies if this post is redundant.


Not redundant, but keep in mind that some amps are designed for certain speaker sizes. It wouldn't necessarily be fair to compare an amp designed to work with 15" speakers with an amp designed to use 10" speakers using the same cab with both. The amps may roll of at different frequencies, and you'd think one amp had uncontrolled bass or the other being too punchy.

Also, the impedance might differ. An 8 Ohm speaker has a lot more winding than a 16 Ohm speaker, and an amp designed to drive the 8 Ohm will likely sound more precise driving it to the same volume. No, you're probably not going to harm the amp by mismatching 50%, unless you regularly crank the output to the max, but you may get worse sound.

I say the best test is to try as many cabs as you can, and compare the best sounding cab for one amp against the best sounding cab for another amp. You want the best, right?


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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:28 pm
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I have an old '69 Bassman head with a '68 2X15 Bassman "driprail" cabinet and once the volume is put past 5 or 6 she starts to break up really nice but when she's cranked she pumps out the most incredible raunch you'd ever want in an amp.I still haven't checked out the speaker number or letter code to see which make they are as they only have the Fender logo on them but they could be Oxfords,Jensen or one of any number of suppliers.Someone said in a similar thread a few months ago that Fender used some brands more than others on certain years,so there's a likelihood that it could be one of only 3 main possibilities rather than one out of a dozen brands.I really should check out the code and try to pick up speakers from the same vintage of that brand,because they are just deadly.It seems that some Fender amps break up sweeter than others,while the really gutsy ones such as a non master volume Twin stay pretty clean even when well into the bleeding ear range.I guess that's why Clapton,Page and a lot of other rock icons use the lower Wattage Fenders in the studio,because with the proper EQ etc. a little Princeton Reverb can sound as huge as a Super Showman stack.

Back in the mid 70s I was looking for a good but loud combo too replace my under powered but too big 35W Traynor Custom Reverb with a 2X12 cab.I tried out a Fender Twin,Peavey Deuce,an Acoustic,and a Yamaha-with the latter 2 being solid state. The Yamaha and Acoustic were out of the running pretty quick because they were way way too clean for the rock that we were doing (Hendrix,Uriah Heap,Queen etc.) even with Yamaha's laughable "distortion" switch engaged.The Twin although a brilliant amp,was too clean also-the Deuce was my choice and I used it for gigging for the next 15 years without a single hitch except a tube replacement.Back in the early 90s I had a momentary lack of reason and sold the Peavey-I still beat myself up over that one.

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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:32 pm
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Your points make sense to me arth1-I see where you're coming from.

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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:32 pm
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Jah Soldier wrote:
I did think about that. But then I thought "well, this is how these companies wanted to design their stuff to be, test them for what they are."

I agree with this inasmuch as Jah's test was not to determine what the 'potential' best tone of each amp was but to determine how they sounded as is. I also think that the argument of apples to apples or lack thereof could be probably applied in any amp comparison of different amps. I think the only time you could truly compare apples to apples was if you were to compare 3 different makers of the same kind of amp, like say ... Fender Tremolux vs. Victoria 20212 vs. Weber 5E3 home built kit.

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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:34 pm
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Rolled the glass, ready to rock.

V-1 Mullard CV4004
V-2 Mullard ecc83
V-3 GE 12ax7a LP
V-4 Telefunken ecc83 LP
V-5 GE 12ax7 LP
V-6 GE 12ax7 LP
V-7 Telefunken ecc83 LP
V-8 GE 12ax7 LP
V-9 Amperex ecc83

Winged C el34s ordered. It's been a long time since I've been engulfed in this much glass in one amp. Damn it feels good. These were carefully selected for each channel and what I wanted to achieve out of them. A lot of GEs were selected. The Bass tones of GE long plates are exactly what the doctor ordered for this beast. Money!!

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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:43 pm
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arth1 wrote:
guitslinger wrote:
Since the type of speakers used with any given amp can so adversely or favourably affect the overall tone,I think the best way to test any 2 or more amps would be to use the same speakers for each test,that way you'd have only one variable-the amps.

Using different speakers would mean having two variables, so for instance if one amp had muffled mids and brilliant highs and poor bass response,you couldn't be assured if it was the amp or the speakers if not using the same speakers for each amp.If you got the same results using the same cabinet throughout,you could rest assured that it was the amp and not the speakers.I didn't read all the responses so I don't know if this has been brought up by someone else-my apologies if this post is redundant.


Not redundant, but keep in mind that some amps are designed for certain speaker sizes. It wouldn't necessarily be fair to compare an amp designed to work with 15" speakers with an amp designed to use 10" speakers using the same cab with both. The amps may roll of at different frequencies, and you'd think one amp had uncontrolled bass or the other being too punchy.

Also, the impedance might differ. An 8 Ohm speaker has a lot more winding than a 16 Ohm speaker, and an amp designed to drive the 8 Ohm will likely sound more precise driving it to the same volume. No, you're probably not going to harm the amp by mismatching 50%, unless you regularly crank the output to the max, but you may get worse sound.

I say the best test is to try as many cabs as you can, and compare the best sounding cab for one amp against the best sounding cab for another amp. You want the best, right?


The Delta Blues also comes as a 2x10 amp, so it's likely voiced for both. I'm seriously considering pulling the trigger one one, but I would have to order it in- nobody carries them around here. I'm in a quandry about which version to get... I LOVE the sound of the C30, and this is the same amp, just with tremolo ( a must in my book), and a different choice of speaker- 1x15 or 2x10.


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