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Post subject: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:14 pm
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Hughes & Kettner Triamp MKI, Peavey Delta Blues, Fender Hot Rod DeVille 4x10.

3 very good amps. All great in their own way. I made a lot of observations today, so this post could be quite long. But the questions in my mind were:

**Is there such a thing as an EVERYTHING amp? Can the Triamp mimic these two?

**Can the Fender mimic the Delta Blues and Vice Versa? Which ones can mimic each other?

**FENDER VS PEAVEY**

I tubed the Fender and Peavey identically with preamp tubes (Amperex), and both have Mesa power tubes. So, they're as close as I could get them. Obviously, both have different power tube types 6L6 VS El84. The speakers: 4x10 VS 1x15. So an interesting matchup.

CLEAN CHANNEL:
PEAVEY DELTA: I set the Peavey Delta to my desired liking and played it for a bit. Then I plugged into the Fender to see if I could match the sound. After a little tweaking, I didn't find it to be all that hard. Bump the mid, less bass and treble, and I was there in 30-seconds. I A/B the two and confirm that they do in fact sound very identical.***FENDER PASS

FENDER DeVILLE: I set the Fender to my desired liking (the way I feel is its strengths). Play it for a bit. Plug into the Peavey to see if I could Match it. After tweaking for a while, I came the conclusion that it wasn't going to happen. The Peavey has a mid voicing that really doesn't allow it to match the Bass and Treble with the Mids in my desired spot for the Fender. ***PEAVEY FAIL

** CONCLUSION: The Fender DeVille has a more versatile clean channel. The range between mid scoop and mid slam is quite broad and tight with the 4x10 setup. As you start to back off the mid with the delta, it loses flavor and becomes loose in the bass due to the 1x15 setup.

**CRUNCH/POWER TUBE DISTORTION

PEAVEY DELTA: I pushed the Peavey into power tube distortion through the clean channel. An enormous beautiful crunch. I played it for a bit, then plugged into the Fender. The clean channel of the Fender has so much headroom it takes a very large volume to push the power tubes, and it never reaches the crunch of the Peavey. HOWEVER, when I switched it to the crunch channel, much to my surprise, I was able to get close fairly quickly. After tweaking the eq and gain and master, I was able to get it dangerously close. Close enough to call it a ***FENDER PASS

FENDER DeVILLE: No need to do a desired setting. The only difference I couldn't dial out of it was its tightness. Sound wise, it was able to mimic the Peavey Delta, and for that I gave it a passing grade. The Crunch channel of the PEAVEY can get a similar sound to the FENDER as well when both gains are bumped. However, the difference in tubes and speakers the gain structures slightly differ. ***PEAVEY PASS

**CONCLUSION
Is the Peavey Delta really all that special?? I think the folks at Fender could have a good argument that it may not be as much as the hype would suggest. And the Fender really surprised me, and changed my mind a little as to my initial idea that the Fender couldn't touch the POWER TUBE CRUNCH of the Peavey.

I'd have to say an apology is probably warranted by me to the guys at Fender. Not only can it mimic the Peavey very closely, it's tighter. It really makes the Peavey sound sluggish and muddy. And it's tighter using a 6L6 Power section vs an EL84 section.

Another HUGE point to mention is that with the FENDER DeVille you can switch between the clean and crunch. You can't do that with the PEAVEY Delta. The gain structure of its crunch channel isn't the same sound.

If the sluggish nature of the Peavey Delta is your game ( and it is cool in its own way), then I'd still give the nod to the Peavey for its Power Tube Distortion as a studio amp. But I personally like the tighter sound of the Fender better. It's a much more versatile clean channel, and for a live application, you can switch to a Delta Blues type sound.

Overall, I have to give the nod to the Fender Hot Rod DeVille. It's more versatile and more for my personal taste. Others may differ. I became a bigger believer in what this amp is capable of today, and have to eat a little crow as a result. I don't think the crunch channel gets the credit it deserves.

HUGHES & KETTNER

This amp is a different animal for sure. It sports EL34s and has 9-preamp tubes. I tried tubing it with similar tubes, but I don't have 15 Amperex tubes lying around here. So I substituted some gain stages with Mullard 12ax7s, but still used Amperex in 1st gain stages and the PI. It's also going through a Carvin Oversized 2x12 cab with Celestion V-30s. Each "AMP" of the Triamp has two separate channels, so I'm just going to focus on whatever is able to mimic the FENDER and PEAVEY.

** CLEAN CHANNEL ( amp 1- channel 1)

VS. PEAVEY: Getting the Peavey Delta Blues sound out of the clean channel is very hard to do. I had to back off the treble to about 3 and take the mid to about 8. I tweaked for a while and came to the conclusion that I was beating a dead horse. It could come close. But not to any usable degree that I would ever use in favor of a clean Fenderish sound with the mids scooped a little. Not loose enough, no HONK. *** FAIL

VS. FENDER: Much closer. To a dangerous degree. Another surprise of the day. This is where I'll have to eat a little crow as well to the idea that the H&K couldn't touch a good Fender sound. After installing the Amperex preamp tube, I really was able to dial in a very clean, lush, Fender sound. Once again I had to tame the treble ( if you can believe that VS a Fender). I A/B the two back and forth for confirmation, and the H&K was able to mimic the Fender successfully. *** PASS

**CONCLUSION: I guess I do owe an apology to H&K as well. The Triamp is very capable of dialing in a very clean, crisp, lush Fender sound that is convincing. As for the Delta, I'm not sure anyone would want to mimick it over this sound. But if they do, it won't happen here.

** CRUNCH CHANNEL (amp 2- channel 2)

I set the Fender and Delta to the settings from before. Delta Power Tube Dist, Fender Crunch channel.

VS. FENDER: The H&K was able to mimick this sound perfectly. The voice, the tightness, the gain, all of it. ***PASS

VS. PEAVEY: This was the biggest surprise moment. Not only can the H&K mimic the sound, when I slammed the mids and Bass to 10, it successfully mimicked the sluggish looseness of the 1x15. When I backed off the gain, it successfully mimicked the clean sound of the Peavey. It's as if they were the same amp. One channel does it. ***PASS/PASS

**CONCLUSION: this is a very well designed amp. To be able to successfully pull off both crunch channels in such a convincing fashion is a nice feat in its own right. And who knows what else it can do within this channel. Before retubing, I didn't even like this channel. Now, I'm really getting to see what it can do, and it's very, very good.

**OVERALL:
The fact that the H&K is versatile shouldn't be surprising. It has 6-channels. The big surprise is how convincingly it can mimic other amps. The Fender and H&K were the front runners of the shoot out.

How great is the Peavey Delta Blues Power Tube Distortion?

Although I love the sound of it, and had gone into this shoot out with the idea that it would heavily shine, it's voicing was able to be mimicked by these two amps. And for my taste, with a more favorable tightness in the Fender. And in the case of the H&K, you can dial up both the tightness of the Fender, and the Looseness of the Peavey. I don't consider it very versatile for live applications. I think the best of what it does resides in one channel and can't be switched to clean. You have to turn it quite loud to get it to the power Dist. So in a mic'd stage setup, it would be pretty useless to use what it's best at. Not to mention that an older model like mine doesn't have a standby switch either. I'm not as big on this amp as I was before the shoot out. The Fender and HK rendered it a studio amp.

Does a Fender Hot Rod DeVille have a good crunch channel?

Very much so. I'm surprised I hadn't dug into it a little deeper in the past. But then again, I bought it for Reggae which doesn't warrant using that channel. Either way, I'd consider it very good and was very happy by its performance today.


Is the H&K a convincing "EVERYTHING" amp?

Yes.. It's not hype or marketing hype. Aside from what the first 2 AMPS can do, the 3rd amp has very convincing Marshall tones in Channel A, and a brutal higher gain in channel B. Fender, Peavey, Marshall, a trifecta that is very pleasing and can be switched and volume balanced. You would be wise not to underestimate this amplifier. I can only imagine what the newer version is capable of.

**BIGGEST MYTH BUSTER

it's a tie between the Fender crunch not being able to touch the Peavey Delta, and The H&K not being able to touch Fender cleans. Both ended up shoving a sock in my mouth and telling me to STFU.

Anyway. There's the shoot out. Obviously they're my opinions, but I do try to be fair and objective. It was a nice day for it. I got to jam for hours, and really get to the heart of what these amps are capable of.

Hope it helps anyone interested in buying one if these amps.

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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:43 am
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Very cool and comprehensive reviews/comparisons there Jah Soldier.

I describe my Peavey Classic 30 as "woody" sounding, which is good for what it does, but I prefer the HRDlx overall. The HRDvl 4x10 is a very versatile amp, great sounds.....just sooo heavy!

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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:06 am
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I know it's a long post, but I think it's important to be thorough when doing comparisons.

When I first got my Delta, I was sure it was such a different amp than my HRDV could achieve. But the two amps were tubed differently. Once I tubed them the same, all it took was a mid bump and turning down of the bass and treble.

Too often I hear of people liking the Hot Rod series only for the cleans. Even I was guilty of it. But if you put these 2 side by side and actually TRY to make a hot rod sound like a Classic, it can be done. In the clean and crunch channel.

I don't want to take away the idea that a Peavey Classic is a good sounding amp. But I also don't want to take away the idea of how versatile the HRDV is. You are capable of adding the mid spike necessary to get a Classic sound. It's there.

I should have also done a WEIGHT comparison. Because I'd swear that the H&K head weighs about as much as the whole HRDV 4x10.

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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:09 am
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I did a similar comparo with a pair of smaller amps about 2 years ago and posted my findings here on the board. I compared a Fender Blues Junior heavily modified with BillM mods with an Egnator Rebel 20. In my comparison I noted honk as something I wanted to avoid but I see in your post you appeared to indicate honk was something desirable. Unless I misinterpreted that, of course. I guess that's just another reason why tone appreciation is so subjective. One man's food is another man's poison.

Thanks for posting a fairly thorough comparison. I'm sure many players who may not have tried one or more of the amps you compared will find you results to be an interesting read. That's one of the things that makes this board so special.

Here's an idea for you to experiment with.
I used an A/B/Y switch in my comparison and once I was done comparing I decided to use the Y option and run both amps simultaneously and I fooled around with them like that for a while. I really liked the sound of one amp running fairly clean, just on the edge of break-up with a nice tight bottom end and the other amp with more drive in the gain stage and a softer, more spongy bottom end. It was a great tone for blues and classic rock. If you have an A/B/Y switch you should try it. I think you might like it.

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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:37 pm
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I'm not a big fan of midrange honk either. The Peavey voicing by nature has a decent amount of mids, and honk can be dialed in, or it can be taken to a more medium level. That's what gives it that retro Bluesy lead sound.

I was more observing that the H&K clean channel doesn't possess that much mid. You have to slam it to 8-10 to get it to Peavey levels. Even then it never reaches "Honk" status. Because of that it fails to sound like a Peavey Classic. I doubt they care much. You can get that in AMP 2 if you want it. Their clean seems to be designed more to get that crystal clean rich Fender sound. And the headroom is very large as well like the HRDV.

I sold my Blues JR years ago due to its mid heavy honky voicing. I couldn't take it away no matter what I did. If it takes amp board modding to do, then I'm not very interested.

I would still say that the HRDV has the most versatility of the 3 clean channels. It can be crystal clean, lush, smooth and rich. And if you want it can honk like a bull horn. The range is very broad.

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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:51 pm
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Do any of them have an inherent reverb you cannot get down to zero, i.e. the tone will always ring a bit after playing? That can be important for some styles of music, where you change chords rapidly and need to avoid blurring.
Does any of them have problems with drop down tuning and open bass string?
Do all of them provide an effects loop?


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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:12 pm
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I can't say I've had that kind of reverb issue before. If I turn them to zero there tends to not be any present.

I haven't played drop tune since the late 2000's when I had my Mesa. So I can't effectively answer that. I do believe the H&K is designed with drop tuning in mind. It's no secret that Metal players love them. There's even a "TIGHT" button in the clean channels to address any boominess that may occur. It voices the channels differently and I do notice a drop in Bass. That being said, it could probably technically be considered a 10 channel amp. But that would be splitting hairs.

All 3 have effect loops. I haven't gotten that deep into them. I used to go through the front end of the Fender just fine. I've never tried the Peavy effects loop. I did run through the H&Ks effects loop, and it seemed to be fine to me. I seem to remember reading that the newer version was revised due to some issue with the MKI, but damned if I know what the issue was. Mine seems to work great. I'd have to spend some time with the others to be able to give some sort of detailed answer.

The H&K has a sensitive front end input. No Low-Z, that's why I decided not to test front end effecting with it. A wah pedal would probably be the only thing I'll run through the front.

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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:07 pm
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Great post. Thanks for reaffirming my choice of a HRDV!


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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:08 pm
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(I say reaffirming because I've been loving it lately!)


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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:31 pm
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Jah Soldier wrote:
I can't say I've had that kind of reverb issue before. If I turn them to zero there tends to not be any present.

I haven't played drop tune since the late 2000's when I had my Mesa. So I can't effectively answer that. I do believe the H&K is designed with drop tuning in mind. It's no secret that Metal players love them. There's even a "TIGHT" button in the clean channels to address any boominess that may occur. It voices the channels differently and I do notice a drop in Bass. That being said, it could probably technically be considered a 10 channel amp. But that would be splitting hairs.

All 3 have effect loops. I haven't gotten that deep into them. I used to go through the front end of the Fender just fine. I've never tried the Peavy effects loop. I did run through the H&Ks effects loop, and it seemed to be fine to me. I seem to remember reading that the newer version was revised due to some issue with the MKI, but damned if I know what the issue was. Mine seems to work great. I'd have to spend some time with the others to be able to give some sort of detailed answer.

The H&K has a sensitive front end input. No Low-Z, that's why I decided not to test front end effecting with it. A wah pedal would probably be the only thing I'll run through the front.


Thanks, Jah - much appreciated! I'm trying some heavier/Norse stuff here, for fun (best reason), and while I really love my Orange amps, they tend to reverb a bit naturally, so rapid strummed chord changes tend to sound muddy.
I'm thinking of getting a 7-string to explore a bit further, so this is good info.


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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:47 pm
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You're very welcome sir. I'd been on the lookout for a heavier amp when I ran across the H&K. It was really the only thing in my arsenal I felt like I was lacking. But running across a deal like I got for it was pretty much a deal if a lifetime.

Much to my surprise, the H&K turned out to be able to do much more than I was looking for. It can effectively do any genre I can think of.

I'm not familiar with Orange amps. I've never owned one. But if it has a tank, maybe it's possible to disconnect it while you're playing that style. To my knowledge, it wouldn't be damaging to do that. But I'd check with an amp tech if it's tube driven. I have no clue what would happen to disconnect a tube driven reverb. May be damaging to the amp, may not. I'm sure someone here on the forum knows.

Either that, or look into getting an amp designed for that style. There are plenty of them out there.

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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:21 pm
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Highline wrote:
Great post. Thanks for reaffirming my choice of a HRDV!

Thank you. And it was a great choice. I used the HRDV on the whole House Of Sharks cd. It didn't disappoint.

If you haven't done so already, you should try some NOS preamp tubes in yours. I like Amperex or Mullard in mine. Really brings out that crystal clean sound.

You can hear some of the recordings here.

http://m.reverbnation.com/artist/353192

Click on "More songs".. The first 3 songs in that list weren't recorded with the HRDV (and believe me, you can tell). But everything else was.

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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:05 pm
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Cool songs Ted, thanks for the link 8) :D

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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:39 pm
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Thanks SBLS. Interesting fact: Every distorted solo on that album was done with a Biyang Metal End pedal going through the HRDV and Roland JC50 doubled Right and left. That pedal is nuts. Very open and wild. You can get great Van Halen Eruption type tones with it.

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Post subject: Re: AMP SHOOT OUT!! A fierce battle.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:44 pm
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How would a bass sound, through a Hot Rod Deville?


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