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Post subject: Does octave generators harm your amp?
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:06 am
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Hi

I really would like to have an octave genertor (like a ehx pog, or a mooer pure octave) but I was wondering if those things could harm guitaramps. My biggest worry are the 2 octaves below the dry signal that it produces. Since it is not allowed to play a bass on a guitaramp because guitarmp speakers are not designed for those low notes I think that those 2 ocatves below a guitar signal also could harm the speaker. Or is the signal of the octave not strong enough? Do you have some advice?

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Post subject: Re: Does octave generators harm your amp?
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:59 am
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I guess it depends on whether the octave generators reproduce the same frequencies as a bass. Hopefully a speaker guru will chime in. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Does octave generators harm your amp?
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:20 pm
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The lowest note on the guitar (low E) is about 80 Hz. Two octaves below that would be 20 Hz. No guitar amp is going to reproduce that sound unless it has a lot of power and very large speakers. Frequencies in that range are not so much heard as they are felt. The subwoofer in my home theater is capable of reproducing the lowest note on an organ footpedal (about 16 Hz). At loud listening levels you can barely hear it but it creates tremendous pressure waves in the room that you feel on you body.

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Post subject: Re: Does octave generators harm your amp?
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:21 pm
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I used a Mutron Octave Divider for years with no issues. I sold it a few years ago and recently just built a clone of the same pedal from BYOC. I even use it with my Champ Amp without a problem. Common sense is very important with any effect. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Does octave generators harm your amp?
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:26 pm
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63supro wrote:
I used a Mutron Octave Divider for years with no issues. I sold it a few years ago and recently just built a clone of the same pedal from BYOC. I even use it with my Champ Amp without a problem. Common sense is very important with any effect. :wink:


So how did that 20 Hz signal sound through the Champ? :shock:

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Post subject: Re: Does octave generators harm your amp?
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:29 pm
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The majority of people can't hear anything below 30-35 Hz anyway (ok official numbers of hearing range are from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, although the range usually diminishes the older you are - and especially for all of us who want our amps to be loud - and even the majority of those in their 20s won't hear anything below 30 or 35 Hz or anything above 12-14 kHz). So no point in going that low imho. Unless you want to give a free massage to the audience :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Does octave generators harm your amp?
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:08 pm
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Aside from the frequency range of the speaker,the biggest issue would be the volume at which the amp is used.If your amp's speaker(s) can reproduce the frequencies generated that's fine but if you proceed to turn the amp up to full-tilt-boogie,it's likely that you'll be shopping for new speakers the next day.Most guitar speakers that can reproduce the low frequencies made by octave generators can handle them without damage at low volumes but once you turn the volume up either bit loud at all,you're risking damage.If I were going to use an octave generator for any amount of time and fairly regularly,I would either go through a bass amp with speakers that were rated form extra-low frequencies or run my guitar amp through a bass cabinet that was so equipped.

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Post subject: Re: Does octave generators harm your amp?
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:00 pm
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There will normally be a high pass filter in place, dropping the lowest frequencies.
I would not worry about that. I'd be more worried about using a compressor.


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Post subject: Re: Does octave generators harm your amp?
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:31 am
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bluesky636 wrote:
The lowest note on the guitar (low E) is about 80 Hz. Two octaves below that would be 20 Hz. No guitar amp is going to reproduce that sound unless it has a lot of power and very large speakers. Frequencies in that range are not so much heard as they are felt. The subwoofer in my home theater is capable of reproducing the lowest note on an organ footpedal (about 16 Hz). At loud listening levels you can barely hear it but it creates tremendous pressure waves in the room that you feel on you body.


+1

This is one such guitar amplifier and speaker combination......

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However, as broad as the JBL D130F's frequency bandwidth is, its response diminishes rapidly below 45 Hz and most LF undertones beyond 36 Hz are inaudible regardless of available input power. For reproduction of signals down to 20 Hz, a separate subwoofer with a crossover network and a discreet power amp is probably the most efficient way.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Does octave generators harm your amp?
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:00 am
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bluesky636 wrote:
63supro wrote:
I used a Mutron Octave Divider for years with no issues. I sold it a few years ago and recently just built a clone of the same pedal from BYOC. I even use it with my Champ Amp without a problem. Common sense is very important with any effect. :wink:


So how did that 20 Hz signal sound through the Champ? :shock:


Bill, don't think it does 20 Hz. :lol: It just gives me an octave below the note I'm playing and it doesn't track that great on open strings and doesn't do chords. The Champ handles it just fine and sounds pretty good. The Mutron pedal is pretty old school. I bought it the mid 70's, low tech by today's standards for sure but it was the Mutts Nuts back then. It also has an old Armstrong Green Ringer built into it too so when you switch it on, it gives you this sort of octave up tone. It's one of those pedals that's tough to use until you learn all its quirks. You have to play clean, it works better on the neck pickup. Works fine with single coil pups, better with Buckers.
Here's a demo of the original. The clone is so close it's scary. Probably one of the toughest pedals I ever built, but it worked the first shot. All 1/8 watt resistors. Really tiny stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcvI6hmRiHY I've even used it through my old Pignose without a problem. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Does octave generators harm your amp?
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:40 am
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arth1 wrote:
I'd be more worried about using a compressor.


Why should I be worried about using a compressor?

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Post subject: Re: Does octave generators harm your amp?
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:45 am
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bluesky636 wrote:
Two octaves below that would be 20 Hz. No guitar amp is going to reproduce that sound unless it has a lot of power and very large speakers. Frequencies in that range are not so much heard as they are felt.


Actually I already watched a lot of reviews of ehx POG2 on youtube and they were using normal guitar amps and I could hear the 2 octaves below the dry signal. There are reviews in which they test every octave seperately and you can always hear the 2 octaves below without any problem.

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Post subject: Re: Does octave generators harm your amp?
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:58 pm
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Celestion cones are primed at 75hz for guitar and 55hz for bass. At least with the G12's. Hendrix favoured 55hz for their harsher treble response.
Trust me, I've whacked a load of pitch shifting through guitar speakers in the past at gig volumes, plenty of times.
My usual setup has a 6th below harmonizing (if you could call it that) with the original pitch.
I used to use a 5th below, into an octave fuzz, then a Danelectro octaver doing 1 and 2 octaves below.

Never blew nuffin cept my own eardrums out.

Guitar speakers can handle it. It's more a case of they are not best suited to it. Meaning it won't give you a tone optimized for those frequencies. If you're running the usual 3 times the power capability of the head, cab. Or even at peak 1.5 times. (100watt head, 300watt cab. 100watt head at peak gives near 200 watts), you're not putting enough power in to blow the speaker unless there is something wrong with it. An octaver ain't gonna hurt, lots of people use em.

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Post subject: Re: Does octave generators harm your amp?
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:21 pm
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Fennycaster wrote:
bluesky636 wrote:
Two octaves below that would be 20 Hz. No guitar amp is going to reproduce that sound unless it has a lot of power and very large speakers. Frequencies in that range are not so much heard as they are felt.


Actually I already watched a lot of reviews of ehx POG2 on youtube and they were using normal guitar amps and I could hear the 2 octaves below the dry signal. There are reviews in which they test every octave seperately and you can always hear the 2 octaves below without any problem.


Please provide a link demonstrating 2 octaves below 80 Hz.

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Post subject: Re: Does octave generators harm your amp?
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:29 pm
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63supro wrote:
bluesky636 wrote:
63supro wrote:
I used a Mutron Octave Divider for years with no issues. I sold it a few years ago and recently just built a clone of the same pedal from BYOC. I even use it with my Champ Amp without a problem. Common sense is very important with any effect. :wink:


So how did that 20 Hz signal sound through the Champ? :shock:


Bill, don't think it does 20 Hz. :lol: It just gives me an octave below the note I'm playing and it doesn't track that great on open strings and doesn't do chords. The Champ handles it just fine and sounds pretty good. The Mutron pedal is pretty old school. I bought it the mid 70's, low tech by today's standards for sure but it was the Mutts Nuts back then. It also has an old Armstrong Green Ringer built into it too so when you switch it on, it gives you this sort of octave up tone. It's one of those pedals that's tough to use until you learn all its quirks. You have to play clean, it works better on the neck pickup. Works fine with single coil pups, better with Buckers.
Here's a demo of the original. The clone is so close it's scary. Probably one of the toughest pedals I ever built, but it worked the first shot. All 1/8 watt resistors. Really tiny stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcvI6hmRiHY I've even used it through my old Pignose without a problem. :lol:


The lowest note on a 4-string bass is 40 Hz (one octave below a regular guitar). Two octaves below 40 Hz is 10 Hz. Impossible to reproduce without special equipment. Even then, you can't hear it, just feel it. 20 Hz is not much easier. Go to an organ recital with a real pipe organ if you want to experience a 16 Hz foot pedal. :shock:

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