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Post subject: Re: Leaving the site!
Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:14 am
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KC9SYJ wrote:
To All It May Concern;
It is with a bit of sadness that I must announce that I am going to have to leave the site. I am not leaving music,though,...I will continue with my lessons and such.
Without going into a lot of details,my main reason for having to leave and say "good bye" is that I can no longer put up with the "tone snobbery" that takes place on the "Modern Amplifiers" board,and the slamming of modern amps,...especially the Hot Rod series of amps,...by two members in particular,...I won't mention any names,...they know who they are. I
don't want any hard feelings,...but I am 'done' with the tone snobbery on that board,...I have had enough!

Bye All
KC9SYJ


I suppose you'll be in the graveyard of ever-increasing forum usernames that have left for similar reasons.. No surprises there. Truth is, you should use whatever amp you want to use.. I've even got a HrdDlx and no problems here- one of the best amps I've owned even!

Ponder this. you don't see any 'professional musicians' here because well- they just don't have the time for this nonsense to argue tone, 'tone woods' or which one is better etc with keyboard jockeys who only know as much as the fender books they read.. Although most of us gig regularly, there are some other people that clearly have waaaay too much time in front of the computer to waste living the real life outdoors or not take this forum too seriously to offer any quality of interaction for people.

In my time, this definitely isn't the first time it's happened and most certainly won't be the last either.

Take care in what you will do away from this forum.

Goodbye & good luck :)

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Post subject: Re: Leaving the site!
Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:14 am
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shimmilou wrote:
63supro wrote:
...but I do know the term "tone snob" has been tossed about..


Yes, it is exactly that type of comment, this time from the OP. There have been many other threads with the same type of comments from others, possibly the ones that the OP was referring to in this thread.

Instead of saying "tone snobs", maybe "those that are particular about their amps" would be less of a personal attack. Or, instead of "shoe gazers" perhaps "hobbyists" would be preferable. In any event, belittling, condescending, questioning their judgement or taste, or talking down to anyone comes across as a personal attack.

Notice that I don't flood the forum, or use every thread as an opportunity to mention how horrible Egnater amps are? Oops, just did.... :lol: Also notice that I leave it at the amps themselves and do not question anyone's judgement, taste or family lineage if they want to get one or if they like the one that they have. :wink:



Lou, what happened to you with Egnater was horrible, it was the same way I still feel about my HRDlx. Some of the tranny issues are still going on. Bruce should have done a recall but my early production Rebel has been amazing. If my Rebel gave me problems like that, the amp would be gone and I'd be on Egnater's forum bitching up a shitstorm for sure.

What pisses me off is just because I say I had problems with an amp, I get accused of all kinds of crap like being a tone snob, keyboard jockey, not being a professional when I've never made any accusations of anyone's musical skills of ability to hear. I made most of my living playing music from around 1979 to around 1984, after having a child,a divorce and such, it became necessary to get some "real" work and play more on a part time basis . I made enough to pay my bills, but I was happy playing music. No big deal, never toured, never got anything but a little local recognition around the Philly club circuit and got to meet some amazing musicians and I'm still a respected player after all these years.

The only thing I would suggest is if someone has a problem with a piece of gear and posts it here, don't take it personally and start insulting the person who made the comment, take it with a grain of salt and ask what happened just in case the same thing happens to you, you may find the fix you need. I never made a comment about the OP 's personal amp, because I never heard his own personal amp. I made comments about my amp. I really think the reason some amps are better than others in the same series is that possibly the run of parts used to produce it may be more in tolerance and where they should be. I measure every part I use when I build my gear. You would be amazed at how close to being out of spec they are, without any power being applied. Apply power and I think problems can occur. That's just my spin on it.

About some of us spending too much time here. I work from home and semi retired. When I'm not out on a shoot or editing photographs, I'm here. Believe it or not, even though I might not like some of Fenders newer amps, I like a lot of the people here. :shock:

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Post subject: Re: Leaving the site!
Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:14 am
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The problem is not that people have opinions. It's that the tone snobs show up as a group in every single thread in the Modern Amps forum that has anything nice to say about a modern amp, and they derail it with garbage about their 1960s holy grail amps and their home-built kits. There is also one guy in particular, Arjay, who gets off on trolling people with name-calling like "pal", "cupcake", and "enjoy your miserable fizz box" and then the rest of them circle around like jackals saying it's ok it's just opinions about amps you need to develop a thicker skin blah blah blah.

Classic bullies, plain and simple.

And yes I've been to other forums where there are real pros (I am the farthest thing from one) and we talk about all kinds of topics and none of this happens. What's going on here in the Fender forum is *not* normal, and it is preventing the forum from realizing its potential as a place for Fender fans to get together.

As a solution I would like all the offenders (you know who you are) to voluntarily stop posting from the Modern Amps forum. You can have the entire rest of Fender.com to slam Fender's amps, just leave that one forum alone. But I bet you won't do it, because you can't get the same reactions out there as you get when you troll Modern Amps.


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Post subject: Re: Leaving the site!
Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:32 am
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I'm glad I don't read the amp forums (I'm a Marshall man).

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Post subject: Re: Leaving the site!
Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:51 am
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Wayne2 wrote:
The problem is not that people have opinions. It's that the tone snobs show up as a group in every single thread in the Modern Amps forum that has anything nice to say about a modern amp, and they derail it with garbage about their 1960s holy grail amps and their home-built kits. There is also one guy in particular, Arjay, who gets off on trolling people with name-calling like "pal", "cupcake", and "enjoy your miserable fizz box" and then the rest of them circle around like jackals saying it's ok it's just opinions about amps you need to develop a thicker skin blah blah blah.

Well ....?? Clearly you do need to grow a thicker skin.
I don't think anybody will argue that sometimes Arjay can come off a little bit aggressive sounding but that's just his style and he backs up his comments with tons and tons of experience and knowledge that you could only dream of ever attaining and you should be growing your skin a little thicker so you can learn from him and those like him rather than trying to land him in hot water by naming him specifically. We Cannucks have a word for that. It's called being a rat except there's usually a colourful expletive included which I can't repeat here.

If you actually LOOKED at what was going in that forum instead of feeling sorry for yourself you would notice there are lots of people who stand up to the "tone snobs" as you call them. It happens quite frequently. Oh, and by the way, there is a difference between a tone snob and a quality snob. 75% of what you guys complain about is negative opinions based on quality and reliability and prior experience. There's far less actual bashing of the tone of a Fender amp than there is bashing of the quality and reliability. As far as I can see the vast majority of the actual "tone" snobbing going on relates to either the boxiness of the BJ or the use of EL84 power tubes. Both of those discussion have a great deal of merit and you guys need to stop snivelling about it. Everyone is entitled to express their opinions. It nobody's fault if you folks lack the ability to defend your arguments. As far as tone goes it is true that EL84s were not used in traditional Fender amps and that you won't get a true vintage Fender style tone from that kind of power section. To argue to the contrary would be foolish because you would be wrong, pure and simple. It's not a matter of personal opinion, it's just logic. It's also true the BJ suffers from its own design. The appeal of the BJ is that it is small, light and therefore very portable. The downside of that is that it sounds boxy. To argue that would be foolish too, especially since there is an entire industry built up around addressing the BJ's shortcomings. If you find arguments against the "tone" of modern Fender amps that do not fall into those very provable categories then that complaint will be the exception and not the rule. Oh wait, there is also the opinion that the more drive channel on the HR series is not the best but I don't see many people disagreeing with that opinion and even if they do disagree they don't object very strenuously.

Wayne2 wrote:
As a solution I would like all the offenders (you know who you are) to voluntarily stop posting from the Modern Amps forum. You can have the entire rest of Fender.com to slam Fender's amps, just leave that one forum alone.
So the guys who like entry level amps can say what they like but guys who like higher end amps have to shut up? It's not the "Entry Level Amp" forum, you know. You did read that title, right? It's the "Modern Amp" forum. That means everything from the Champ 600 on up to the VibroKing. You are asking for a double standard and special treatment for the fans of the HR amps and it just ain't gonna happen.

I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm being hard on you but you guys really do need to suck it up a little bit. You rave about these entry level amps like they are the greatest thing since sliced bread and you can't stand it when somebody bursts your bubble with a little factual information about how they're made. Even Fender knows about the problem. They've been working to improve them so why would you argue against Fender? The truth is you guys lay down your cash way before you have enough of it and you settle for entry level instead of waiting until you can afford mid-range and then you forget the age old saying, You Get What You Pay For. Give your heads a shake lads. Your eyes are stuck.

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Post subject: Re: Leaving the site!
Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:58 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
So the guys who like entry level amps can say what they like but guys who like higher end amps have to shut up? It's not the "Entry Level Amp" forum, you know. You did read that title, right? It's the "Modern Amp" forum. That means everything from the Champ 600 on up to the VibroKing. You are asking for a double standard and special treatment for the fans of the HR amps and it just ain't gonna happen.


I can't speak for anything else, but I don't think it's unreasonable that those who hate modern amps and never would use one stay away from the modern amp forum, especially when all they contribute boils down to "my vintage amps are better than your modern crap".
They have their Vintage amp forum.


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Post subject: Re: Leaving the site!
Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:32 am
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Do the people who can afford vintage tube amps and high-end modern tube amps, and own several of them, actually get offended by the moniker "tube snob" or "tone snob?"

I always saw those monikers as sort of affectionate pokes perhaps even with a tint of jealously by us hobbyists who do well to own an occasional US-made instrument!

If I were rich, I would have six amps in every room of my mansion and, when I wanted to switch tones, I would pull my input jack out of one $2k amp and pop it into another and I would proudly proclaim myself a tube and tone snob!

I belong to motorcycle forums as well and you see the same thing there.... people who celebrate ALL people who ride on two wheels and people who think you are just a piece of $%^& if you don't own or can't afford a Harley Davidson. Those intolerant Harley owners take pride in any moniker anyone chooses to give them in their disparagement of any non-Harley bike and anyone who rides one.

But seriously, when an average joe comes home from Guitar Center after having spent $800 hard-earned on a brand new HRDIII, likely more than he could really afford; shouldn't he get to post about it and be celebrated a little rather than cut-down? Sure, its no vintage Twin Reverb but then again he could not have purchased such for the same price.

Surely everyone on this forum can appreciate just how few people this day and age ever even show interest let alone take up a musical instrument... I for one think every kid on the planet that brings home a Squier Strat Pack should get their 5 minutes of fame on the Fender forums!

BTW: Where are the ladies on the Fender forum? Do the gal players just not obsess over gear so much as we do? :?:

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Post subject: Re: Leaving the site!
Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:21 am
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arth1 wrote:
BMW-KTM wrote:
So the guys who like entry level amps can say what they like but guys who like higher end amps have to shut up? It's not the "Entry Level Amp" forum, you know. You did read that title, right? It's the "Modern Amp" forum. That means everything from the Champ 600 on up to the VibroKing. You are asking for a double standard and special treatment for the fans of the HR amps and it just ain't gonna happen.


I can't speak for anything else, but I don't think it's unreasonable that those who hate modern amps and never would use one stay away from the modern amp forum, especially when all they contribute boils down to "my vintage amps are better than your modern crap".
They have their Vintage amp forum.


Sorry, but you missed both the points...First off no one "Hates" new amps, it is just known that the QC of the new amps is NOT up to snuff and the quality level of the components is NOT what it should be. That does make some folks upset I imagine because Fender seems to have forgotten what made their amps the best in the world and that was quality components built to withstand the rigors of the road.

Secondly and sorry if this hurts your sensibilities, but everyone of the vintage amps I own IS better than all the modern amps. That is not a snobs opinion, it merely FACT. They are better built, sound better, and most importantly built for easy maintenance...That is what Leo's amps were all about and why they became the best amps on the planet. That is a lesson FMIC seems to have forgotten...sadly. I wish all new Fender amps were built like they used to.

T2

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Post subject: Re: Leaving the site!
Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:43 am
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You guys are still missing it. These things usually start when someone asks, what should I buy? Nobody just sits and waits to tell someone their amp is garbage. Usually an opinion is asked. Should I buy a Hrd, a Drri, or a Peavey,Marshall etc. The Hrd guys say buy the HRD III, it's the best amp out there, someone like yours truly will say go for the DRRI because it's built better or IMO sounds better. I don't even own a DRRI currently, but I have used them and have owned a couple the originals. That's when the guys get offended. Especially if I say, my HRD didn't fare well. It all started with a suggestion for a better quality Amp made in America. The so called tone snobs were not at fault here and personally, I will not leave the Modern Amp forum, so put me on your Foe List.

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Post subject: Re: Leaving the site!
Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:53 am
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Now that a thread whining about personal attacks has devolved into personal attacks, maybe its time for the moderators to shut it down. I know its time for me to leave it, and the Lounge. From now on, I will stay strictly in the Modern and Vintage amp forums. If anybody doesn't like that, too bad. Feel free to add me to your foes list. I guarantee that you are already on mine. The Gear Page has the option of ignoring threads and entire forums. Maybe this forum needs the same. :roll:

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Last edited by bluesky636 on Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Leaving the site!
Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:53 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Well ....?? Clearly you do need to grow a thicker skin.
I don't think anybody will argue that sometimes Arjay can come off a little bit aggressive sounding but that's just his style and he backs up his comments with tons and tons of experience and knowledge that you could only dream of ever attaining and you should be growing your skin a little thicker so you can learn from him and those like him rather than trying to land him in hot water by naming him specifically. We Cannucks have a word for that. It's called being a rat except there's usually a colourful expletive included which I can't repeat here.

...


Thank you for proving my point. You bring up the code of the playground as if I should be ashamed of myself, and your wolfpack buddies continue to say it's about tone snobbery and opinions on amps when this is anything but.

This is internet trolling and bullying.

In my neck of the woods, calling someone "cupcake" is pretty much the same as calling them something that rhymes with "maggot", and those who speak out against it are respected. Maybe you live in a part of Canada where it's cool to gang up on people who are a little different; I don't know. I'm thinking you need to take a look in the mirror and grow up.


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Post subject: Re: Leaving the site!
Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:06 pm
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So, since this all seems to stem from some issue with the Hot Rod series of amps, what exactly is the issue with them? Is there a high failure rate with them, or just the tone is unappealing? I'm very curious because I've considered these amps as a possible alternative/back up to my 82' Super Champ. Tone is one thing that is a matter of opinion, but reliability is another. If you think they sound like poop is one thing, but I'm more concerned if the thing will die after a week of use.

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Post subject: Re: Leaving the site!
Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:14 pm
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Jeeze o Pete's....
Don't come here often anymore.... Seem same old whiny $@! $@!& as usual....

This used to be a first rate forum

Ymmv

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Post subject: Re: Leaving the site!
Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:32 pm
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I am am unabashed tone snob. I am also an unashamed reliability snob. If it doesn't sound good and isn't reliable, it will not be any part of my rig, from string to speaker.

However, if a person were to look at my instruments, they'll see that I am not a gear/brand/tube/country of origin snob, by any definition or stretch of the imagination.

I have high-end boutique pedals and el cheapo stompboxes, Chinese, Mexican, Japanese, Indonesian and American guitars, solid state, digital and tube amps, perfectly milled high quality slides made from alloys I can't pronounce and old Craftsman sockets that I chopped off the heavy end with a chopsaw in my barn, high-end brand new and off-the-wall vintage microphones, digital DI's and tube preamps.

If you don't like my stuff--good and fine. If you insult my stuff--well, ok. If you're nasty about my stuff--you're foe'd.

If it sounds good, I like it. If it is reliable, I like it. If it sounds good and it is reliable, I LOVE it...and if I can afford it, it's coming home with me.

I would like people to find my choices interesting or noteworthy, but if they don't, I couldn't care less.

Having said that, I generally won't insult another person's instrument choices; I might relate the reasons I wouldn't choose or don't like that particular item, but I won't lambast them for that choice. If nothing else, I will probably celebrate the fact that the got a usable sound out of a device I find lacking.

I don't think 63Supro or Arjay (both of whom I've extensively interacted with and had no problem or issue, even considering the "lesser quality" of some of my instruments) crossed any invisible line, because they state plainly what they like and dislike about any item they are familiar with...plus, since that line is invisible, the only person who can judge if it's been crossed is the person who drew it.

I also don't fault the guy who quit, but I think he should just "foe" the individuals who bothered him instead of leaving.

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Post subject: Re: Leaving the site!
Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:54 pm
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This is great! Now that frustrations have been vented, we can all sing Cum-bay-ya. :D

I think that it's fine to disagree, even have a few heated debates. After all is said and done, this is still the best forum ever, IMO.

I have no foe list, not one foe (sorry Retroverbial :lol: ), but a long friend list. 8)

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