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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:01 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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All this being said...the "best" bass tone I've ever heard was from a cheap, laminated wood(steamed and glued into a ply) semi-hollow Hofner. Check out some of Paul McCartney's isolated bass-Beatles stuff on youtube.

I don't mean to put anybody with a Hofner, down. It's just that I can't see one of those things(even a German version) costing as much as they do, without the Beatles' attachment.


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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:27 pm
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strayedstrater wrote:
TheKingofPain wrote:
1) When I spoke of bass frequencies I was speaking in terms of decay over distance. Not tone. The audience isn't likely to hear much of the nuance that is picked up by the player. Solo or otherwise, and certainly not what you'd hear recorded. Both the inefficiency of the instrument, the nature of low frequencies and how poorly they travel, competing sound of other instruments and distance all go into making much of what is gained by that higher quality construction negligible to the audience.


2) Better looking and sounding wood is subjective. Tone woods are better at producing different frequencies. One is not better. They are simply different. What wood you use should reflect what you are trying to bring out of the instrument.


1) Have you never been to a decent symphony hall? Even a half-way decent one has outstanding acoustics -- people in the balconies and back rows can hear a bassist's fingers squeaking on the strings. Segovia could fill a hall playing solo classical guitar and everyone in the audience could hear the nuances. The audience has to be polite/silent, and the room can't just be a big rectangular space, but bass (and every other instrument) fills the room.

Modern huge halls have sound reinforcement systems that are an audiophile's wet dream. They're individually designed to compliment the room's natural acoustics.



Because fingersqueak happens in a different frequency range. So what he hell does that have to do with anything? That's why it carries so much in comparison. You actually just proved the point. Again. I'm not saying that the fundamental doesn't carry. I'm saying that the difference in quality of tone between a 50k and a 100k dollar double bass in a large arrangement to an audience is negligible. Anyone who thinks that an average attendee to one of these events could tell the difference is fooling themselves. Or is simply a fool A bassist who has trained his ear who can't see the isntruments? Maybe.

Quote:
2) Better looking/better sounding may have been arbitrary hundreds of years ago in Europe, but over time a broad consensus has been formed. Certain tonal qualities are revered because they're the qualities that the music was written for. Whether people like them just because it's what they've learned to like, what they've always been told to like, or whether it's something more intrinsic -- perhaps some sonorities trigger neurochemical reactions in our brains -- whatever the reason, most fans agree on what constitutes "better".

Those valuations vary from culture to culture. A cheap fiddle may sound better for zydeco than a Strad would, but fans of classical will overwhelmingly chose the Strad for their music even in blind tests.

As for looks, again there's a broad consensus. Most people will "ooooohhh" and "ahhhhhhh" when they see fancy flame maple, even if they don't care about music.


You know it's funny. Have you ever watched the Custom Shop videos on wood selection for tones? Maybe you should check them out. As far as better looking? Flame maple doesn't impress me. As for "majority rule". Well, if you let other people form your opinions for you then have fun with that.

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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:24 pm
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..just a random comment out of nowhere:

I don't know how much this would compare or add to the subject of guitar, but you've seen those bridges they put on stringed instruments. They're traditionally highly detailed, with little squares and rectangles..kind of in a formation. They go up in price, the more perfectly placed(in a traditional sense) they are. The historically best double bass examples happen to have the "best" grained bridges. After many years of refinement, the players of an orchestra wouldn't choose those bridges based on looks.


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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:53 pm
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Okay, I'm glad I don't need to pay $50K or $200K for a guitar to join a rock and roll combo and play in some bar.

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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:50 pm
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orvilleowner wrote:
Okay, I'm glad I don't need to pay $50K or $200K for a guitar to join a rock and roll combo and play in some bar.

Which is actually one reason some musicians look down on Rock n roll and the Blues--they see us as the rabble.

Not all do, maybe not even most--as a lot of them are also fans of rock and blues, etc.


Also some of the orchestral instruments are more expensive as the more serious & successful musicians often play vintage instruments--where vintage doesn't means from the 1970's.

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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:34 am
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zontar wrote:
orvilleowner wrote:
Okay, I'm glad I don't need to pay $50K or $200K for a guitar to join a rock and roll combo and play in some bar.

Which is actually one reason some musicians look down on Rock n roll and the Blues--they see us as the rabble.

That's not just the low price barrier to being a rock musician, but the low talent barrier and lack of consistency. A typical rock musician isn't capable of repeating his performance with any accuracy.

Yes, we are to orchestral musicians what kazoo players are to us. And when some of our very best were famous for being both high and drunk on stage, it does tell something about how disciplined and dedicated we are. Sure, there are talents and dedication too. But that's more exceptions than the rule.

What Leo Fender did was make engaging music playing available to the masses, and put the musician in front, not the music. Even if it's rough and uncut, it is now accessible, and gives everyone an opportunity to dream of becoming a star. He lowered the bars, and I think that's a good thing.


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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:33 am
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arth1 wrote:
zontar wrote:
orvilleowner wrote:
Okay, I'm glad I don't need to pay $50K or $200K for a guitar to join a rock and roll combo and play in some bar.

Which is actually one reason some musicians look down on Rock n roll and the Blues--they see us as the rabble.

That's not just the low price barrier to being a rock musician, but the low talent barrier and lack of consistency. A typical rock musician isn't capable of repeating his performance with any accuracy.

Yes, we are to orchestral musicians what kazoo players are to us. And when some of our very best were famous for being both high and drunk on stage, it does tell something about how disciplined and dedicated we are. Sure, there are talents and dedication too. But that's more exceptions than the rule.

What Leo Fender did was make engaging music playing available to the masses, and put the musician in front, not the music. Even if it's rough and uncut, it is now accessible, and gives everyone an opportunity to dream of becoming a star. He lowered the bars, and I think that's a good thing.



Yeah, but there's the flip side to that aswell. Learning in that structured of an enviroment is detrimental to many players. Much in the way public schooling is to critical thinking. From what I've seen from the people who I know who have had classical training beyond the rudimentary level you get in high school. They tend to be very rigid in their approach to music. For the most part you don't start getting into theory and how it relates to creating and arranging music until later on. By then many have had the creativity bludgeoned out of them. I once played with a guy who could nail any solo you wanted without much practice. He did very well in the cover band circuit. However, when it came to original music it was a source of extreme frustration for him. He'd always ask "What should I play, what do you want to hear?" The band would always come back with "Play what you feel. What does the song make you want to say?". He'd just look at you with a blank stare, and get frustrated. Sitting around for decades playing music note for note by long dead composers does not sound like fun to me. It sounds like punching a time clock.

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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:37 am
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WildintheStreets wrote:

I'm trying to make sense of this. You're saying the denser wood(which is generally the core, right?), because of it's tight grain, is desired for vibration. I'm with you there, but aren't the most cosmetically desired woods from that very same tighter grained core? So, the wood's grain and growth rings aren't that important for tone, yet the denser wood really is? Huh? Doesn't the denser wood have the tighter growth rings?

I think the better/tighter grained wood is more demand both acoustically and cosmetically...for a reason. The two truly go together.

I gotta retract some of this. The tighter grains usually form further away from the center of the tree. It's the actual thickness of the individual grain, and the way the wood was cut that leads to a "nicer" appearance.


Let me see if I can explain it more simply....
That figured Maple that we see is actually a disease which disturbs the growth pattern... There is very little hint if any that a Maple tree will be what we call flamed and figured from the outside looking at the bark on an unfelled tree. even when the blanks ( whole logs ) are cut to length before they are quarter sawn you wouldn't be able to see wether or not that log is just a plain Maple pattern or that sought after figured patterns....

I'll switch to an acoustic, an acoustic with a flamed maple top will very likely not sound as great as one with a Spruce top. The direction or alignment of the wood fibers and it's density contributes greatly to the overall tone . It is also dependent on the location and period as to when that tree was harvested... Climate patterns affect a tree's growth tremendously, depending on moisture availability as well as nutrients... The acoustic top vibrates from the strings movement and that vibration affects the air molecules inside the acoustical chamber which in turn amplifies and converts those vibrations into an audible sound... It is strictly a mechanical process with an acoustic instrument and if the parts ( top, back, sides ) are not conducive to transmitting those vibrations, you have a poorly sounding instrument, in which notes are muffled.

With an electric it follows the same rules with string vibration and those vibrations being transmitted thru the wood, but enters an electromagnetic process where converting those string vibrations to an audible sound... But the wood does matter greatly since it is the conduit for those vibrations....
The fibers on a piece of figured Maple or for that matter Walnut are not linear but twist and turn thus affecting travel... It has the effect of dampening the vibration, or shortening it's life..
In addition figured wood is much harder / denser which makes it more difficult to work, it has a tendency to chip out when planed thus leaving small craters and doesn't readily stain as well.
( Or doesn't absorb liquid as easily )
It can split and be really uncooperative to woodworking tools.

On the growth rings... Wood is cut ( Premium wood ) as what we refer to as quarter sawn which yields a blank more resistant to warping and bowing, doesn't affect visually since you would be looking at the blank edgewise ( if that makes sense to you ) Difficult to visually describe, Google methods of woodcutting images that should explain visually....

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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:47 am
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TheKingofPain wrote:
I once played with a guy who could nail any solo you wanted without much practice. He did very well in the cover band circuit. However, when it came to original music it was a source of extreme frustration for him.


Technical virtuosity, creative mediocrity. Personally, if had I to choose between the two, I'd rather have the creativity.


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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:55 am
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WildintheStreets wrote:
..just a random comment out of nowhere:

I don't know how much this would compare or add to the subject of guitar, but you've seen those bridges they put on stringed instruments. They're traditionally highly detailed, with little squares and rectangles..kind of in a formation. They go up in price, the more perfectly placed(in a traditional sense) they are. The historically best double bass examples happen to have the "best" grained bridges. After many years of refinement, the players of an orchestra wouldn't choose those bridges based on looks.


if you look inside the Viola, Bass or a Violin, directly under the top at the bridge is a post that connects top to back and is also a critical part of the sound... If you move that post to anywhere but it's optimal location, the sound / tone of that stringed instrument will be greatly affected.

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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:06 am
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53magnatone wrote:
if you look inside the Viola, Bass or a Violin, directly under the top at the bridge is a post that connects top to back and is also a critical part of the sound... If you move that post to anywhere but it's optimal location, the sound / tone of that stringed instrument will be greatly affected.


Yep, it's called the sound post:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_post

I learned that yesterday when I started reading about stand-up basses after this thread got started. Apparently moving it as little as a quarter of a millimeter can have a dramatic impact on the sound of the instrument, as can the direction in which it's moved. Whether I would be able to discern a difference is debatable :)


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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:25 am
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TheKingofPain wrote:

Yeah, but there's the flip side to that aswell. Learning in that structured of an enviroment is detrimental to many players. Much in the way public schooling is to critical thinking. From what I've seen from the people who I know who have had classical training beyond the rudimentary level you get in high school. They tend to be very rigid in their approach to music. For the most part you don't start getting into theory and how it relates to creating and arranging music until later on. By then many have had the creativity bludgeoned out of them. I once played with a guy who could nail any solo you wanted without much practice. He did very well in the cover band circuit. However, when it came to original music it was a source of extreme frustration for him. He'd always ask "What should I play, what do you want to hear?" The band would always come back with "Play what you feel. What does the song make you want to say?". He'd just look at you with a blank stare, and get frustrated. Sitting around for decades playing music note for note by long dead composers does not sound like fun to me. It sounds like punching a time clock.


Since Musical notes on a page are fundamentally linear mathematical equations, which are learned ( :roll: ) and then computed without much emotion or creativity. A person who learns a certain program can repeat that program and variations of that program but if creavity wasn't present or isn't part of the consensus of that person, it's basically a mechanical exercise.
However, M.C. Esher was a brilliant Mathematician, yet his 4 dimensional etchings are revered and exceedingly difficult to recreate...

There is this fallacy that Classical musicians are numb automatons, then if that's the case where does Ihztack Pearlman, Natalie McMaster, John Williams, Hillary Hahn, Nadja Salerno Sonnenberg ( talk about an emotional creative player ) Nigel Kennedy, Anne Sophie Mutter, Gil Shaham, Lara St. John. Sharon Isbin is a renowned classical player as well as a University Professor yet she has collaborated with Mark O'Connor, Joan Baez and recently Steve Vai ... Those are all elite classical players who in no way sound drab and lifeless.
Granted there is a minority of classical players that are not capable of functioning outside of the box, but that is also very true in Blues, RB, Rock. Many players cannot improvise to save their soul, they may know all the scales and be able to repeat all of them, but repetition is not the same as taking a scale and transposing it to a different key while at the same time fluently and seamlessly returning to the Coda... Adding emotion to their playing is just not in their wiring..

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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:38 am
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On the subject of Figured Maple and Figured Walnut, here are a couple of projects early on..

This is the book matched Top...

Image

And this the bookmatched back...

Image

The back of the book-matched Walnut Tele...

Image

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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:48 am
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[quote="53magnatone"][/quote]

Purty!

So provided you could work at it every day without interruption, how long would it take you to have a completed instrument?


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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:49 am
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Both rough shaped bodies..

Image

This is the Tele in it's current state...

Image

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Last edited by 53magnatone on Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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