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Post subject: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:15 am
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A similar discussion was had on another forum recently.
And I had a conversation with an amateur cellist who has a bow that costs more than some of my guitars.
A professional string player may very well spend more on a bow alone than we do on a guitar.

http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/20364-spoiled-guitarists-that-guitar-costs-emhowem-much

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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:11 am
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I'm buying a $250 set of pickups


so yeah

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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:39 am
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That was a fantastic article.

I've long known that harps were extremely expensive. I was at a function one time that hired a professional harpist. She and I got to talking, and it came out that she'd paid about 25 grand for her instrument. That's a ton of money for a young woman in college

(Another thing I'd never realized is how big a harp is when you're standing next to it.)

One thing that blew me away from the article was the whole thing about doubles basses, and that someone winning a permanent spot in an orchestra would upgrade from a $50,000 instrument to one costing four times as much. Imagine the kind of ear you'd have to have in order to discern a meaningful difference between the two. I mean, in the world of double basses, it's not like 50 grand is only going to get you some piece of cheap plywood junk made in Indonesia, right?

I found this interesting too:

"Traditional jazz guitarists also resemble classical players in that they can ply their craft with a single instrument, whereas guitarists engaged in popular music usually need
a variety of axes to be competitive."

I know next to nothing about jazz, but I guess that means that a jazz guitarist is more likely to be going for a consistent "signature sound," both in the studio and live.


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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:17 am
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Karl Hungus wrote:
One thing that blew me away from the article was the whole thing about doubles basses, and that someone winning a permanent spot in an orchestra would upgrade from a $50,000 instrument to one costing four times as much. Imagine the kind of ear you'd have to have in order to discern a meaningful difference between the two. I mean, in the world of double basses, it's not like 50 grand is only going to get you some piece of cheap plywood junk made in Indonesia, right?



Considering how poorly the human ear hears in that band of frequency, and how horribly inefficient of a design the double bass is at actually projecting sound. I'd think it's mostly done as "keeping up with the Jones'" Not surprising in elitist type circles. Any noticeable difference, if there is one. Would be completely lost in even a small arrangement, and certainly lost on an audience of non-bassists. Much in the way that Joe Six-pack and Mary Jane Rottencrotch at the bar could care less if you're playing on a Custom Shop Strat or an Squier. It's completely lost in translation.

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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:39 am
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TheKingofPain wrote:
Considering how poorly the human ear hears in that band of frequency, and how horribly inefficient of a design the double bass is at actually projecting sound. I'd think it's mostly done as "keeping up with the Jones'" Not surprising in elitist type circles. Any noticeable difference, if there is one. Would be completely lost in even a small arrangement, and certainly lost on an audience of non-bassists. Much in the way that Joe Six-pack and Mary Jane Rottencrotch at the bar could care less if you're playing on a Custom Shop Strat or an Squier. It's completely lost in translation.


Thus speaks someone who has never been playing a bowed instrument in the violin family, and likely not listened to much either.

The voice of these instruments differ from each other as much as human voices. Listening to a record, it's often easier to pick out which specific instrument that was used than who played it!
Some of us would have paid good money to get the voice of Smokey Robinson, even if it would not imply being able to sing that good.

But sure, the law of diminishing returns come into effect, like with everything else; each step up the price ladder will give you less improvements than the step below did. That's not unique to basses and violins.


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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:48 am
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TheKingofPain wrote:


Considering how poorly the human ear hears in that band of frequency, and how horribly inefficient of a design the double bass is at actually projecting sound. I'd think it's mostly done as "keeping up with the Jones'" Not surprising in elitist type circles. Any noticeable difference, if there is one. Would be completely lost in even a small arrangement, and certainly lost on an audience of non-bassists. Much in the way that Joe Six-pack and Mary Jane Rottencrotch at the bar could care less if you're playing on a Custom Shop Strat or an Squier. It's completely lost in translation.



That's kind of what I was thinking too, but I didn't want to be the guy who said so, only to have experienced musicians come out of the woodwork to tell me how ignorant I am lol

I guess I wouldn't want to travel in circles where I'm expected to pay 200 grand for an instrument just to keep up appearances, especially if I'm only making a modest salary, and especially if no one is going to be able to appreciate how nice my $200,000 instrument sounds. No thanks, that sort of money buys a pretty nice house where I live.



("Mary Jane Rottencrotch" . . . haven't heard that since my Marine Corps days lol)


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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:55 am
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arth1 wrote:
TheKingofPain wrote:
Considering how poorly the human ear hears in that band of frequency, and how horribly inefficient of a design the double bass is at actually projecting sound. I'd think it's mostly done as "keeping up with the Jones'" Not surprising in elitist type circles. Any noticeable difference, if there is one. Would be completely lost in even a small arrangement, and certainly lost on an audience of non-bassists. Much in the way that Joe Six-pack and Mary Jane Rottencrotch at the bar could care less if you're playing on a Custom Shop Strat or an Squier. It's completely lost in translation.


Thus speaks someone who has never been playing a bowed instrument in the violin family, and likely not listened to much either.

The voice of these instruments differ from each other as much as human voices. Listening to a record, it's often easier to pick out which specific instrument that was used than who played it!
Some of us would have paid good money to get the voice of Smokey Robinson, even if it would not imply being able to sing that good.

But sure, the law of diminishing returns come into effect, like with everything else; each step up the price ladder will give you less improvements than the step below did. That's not unique to basses and violins.


I am not arguing that there isn't a difference. If you were to record that instrument in a studio solo it would most certainly sound better. Much in the same way that a CS Strat would as opposed to a Squier. You're talking apples and oranges when you're talking Smokey Robinson. Unless you're talking Smokey Robinson being mashed into a large choir. Then would you pay top dollar to see him being drowned out by a 100 other voices? Because that is what happens to the bass in these arrangements.

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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:13 am
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TheKingofPain wrote:
I am not arguing that there isn't a difference. If you were to record that instrument in a studio solo it would most certainly sound better.



I just can't imagine that by paying 50 grand for a double bass, you're still not getting the very best instrument that can possibly be made. I could understand a one-off special dipped in gold, or maybe a museum piece that had been used to kill a president or something, but for an everyday working instrument whose qualities are immediately going to be lost in the crowd? Jeez . . .


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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:29 am
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Karl Hungus wrote:
TheKingofPain wrote:
I am not arguing that there isn't a difference. If you were to record that instrument in a studio solo it would most certainly sound better.



I just can't imagine that by paying 50 grand for a double bass, you're still not getting the very best instrument that can possibly be made. I could understand a one-off special dipped in gold, or maybe a museum piece that had been used to kill a president or something, but for an everyday working instrument whose qualities are immediately going to be lost in the crowd? Jeez . . .



We couldn't see it. However, to the person using it that little bit extra makes all the difference. Tone is in the hands, but the instrument does help. Moreover, the brain controls the hands. So if you believe that instrument makes everything you play sound infinitely better. It just might. That may be dipping into the hoodoo a bit. However, that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. As a craftsman it's not hard to imagine, though. Whether that person could do the job on a 50k bass, or not is irrelevant. They have reached a level of stature that they feel, and rightfully so, that they deserve an instrument that finely crafted. Who are we to judge? Do they NEED it? Likely not. That is irrelevant. The heart wants what it wants.

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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:46 am
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Not sure the article really discerned objectively.... But... Since we got on the subject of string instruments....
Which one(s) of you dissenting opinions have actually picked up a Violin or Viola and played it..
Actually who can play a Violin or Viola ?? Or would you even be able to discern, between a Baroque violin and a more modern version ??

It's rather ironic to be opinionated on the cost of stringed ( acoustic ) instruments, let alone their voice, when coming from an electrified spectrum...

To add to the discussion, a pro quality modern day Violin / Viola / Cello / Bass / Contra Bass will cost thousands of dollars, not because it's keeping up with the Jonese's :roll:
But rather because those instruments are difficult to make, very time consuming and each have a very distinct voice....

Now if we look into the equivalent ( to guitars ) Vintage... Say 1600 to 1800 then we are looking at virtually priceless instruments, such as Guarneri's, Stradivarius and other's from that era of Paganini, Bach, Mozart ...etc... throughout a 300 year musical window ... These instruments sometimes come up for auction at $,$$$,$$$.$$+ prices, however some owned by very wealthy patrons are loaned out to young promising virtuoso's and other's so that the public can enjoy and hear what a 1730 Giuseppe Antonio Guarneri, ( 1687-1745, third generation Guarneri also referred to as Del Gesu.) sounds like ...
Andrea Guarneri (1626-98 ) waas a fellow apprentice of Stradivari in the Amati workshop..

Modern Luthiers ( actual real Luthiers, crafstmen ) have since then, been trying to replicate the sound produced from those instruments in the modern instruments they craft... They are still searching.

Concerning expensive instruments, both of my 93-95 Larrive's acoustic were in the $4,500 range to buy new.... Any acoustic guitar with incredible tonal qualities are going to be pricey, that is just due to materials , designs and the craftsmanship involved.... Taylor makes a very consistent acoustic, but their really outstanding GC's are in the $5,000+ cost.... and those are not made on an assembly line....
Not to say that there is no value in a $700 Takamine, but the voice is not the same.... Finely crafted instruments have always been expensive, but are sought after because of their acoustical tone qualities.......
One doesn't have to pay large sums if that is not feasible... But I do urge anyone to go and compare an assembly line acoustic in the $500 to $1500 range, then compare it to a $5,000 handmade acoustic and listen for the tonal difference... :?: :idea:

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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:53 am
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TheKingofPain wrote:
We couldn't see it. However, to the person using it that little bit extra makes all the difference. Tone is in the hands, but the instrument does help. Moreover, the brain controls the hands. So if you believe that instrument makes everything you play sound infinitely better. It just might. That may be dipping into the hoodoo a bit. However, that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. As a craftsman it's not hard to imagine, though. Whether that person could do the job on a 50k bass, or not is irrelevant. They have reached a level of stature that they feel, and rightfully so, that they deserve an instrument that finely crafted. Who are we to judge? Do they NEED it? Likely not. That is irrelevant. The heart wants what it wants.


Amen.
Do I need a $2500 tele with a $450 boutique pedal and $1500 amp as my main gear? Absolutely not.
Do I feel I play better with it? Absolutely.
Do I play better depending on how I feel? Absolutely.

If I had invested enough of my life in playing, I could very well see myself buying equipment costing ten times as much as that.
For someone really good, unlike me, they may have to invest thousands of hours of practice to get just a tiny improvement that way. Then, investing thousands of dollars to get a tiny improvement or feel better about playing (which reflects in the music) might seem like a good deal.

That doesn't mean the best can't make a $80 Peavey guitar sing, and that 80% of the audience wouldn't even notice. But they don't play $80 Peaveys. I think they're well entitled to pay top dollar for top gear, even if every extra dollar gets them less and less. I don't think it's insane to pay $10k or even $30k for a guitar, if guitar is your life, and you feel better and play better. Or $80k for a standing bass, for that matter, if bass is your life.
Many people spend more on cars, golf, mistresses or other things that might be less important to them than an instrument is to a musician.


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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:02 am
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53magnatone wrote:
Not sure the article really discerned objectively.... But... Since we got on the subject of string instruments....
Which one(s) of you dissenting opinions have actually picked up a Violin or Viola and played it..
Actually who can play a Violin or Viola ?? Or would you even be able to discern, between a Baroque violin and a more modern version ??

It's rather ironic to be opinionated on the cost of stringed ( acoustic ) instruments, let alone their voice, when coming from an electrified spectrum...

To add to the discussion, a pro quality modern day Violin / Viola / Cello / Bass / Contra Bass will cost thousands of dollars, not because it's keeping up with the Jonese's :roll:
But rather because those instruments are difficult to make, very time consuming and each have a very distinct voice....

Now if we look into the equivalent ( to guitars ) Vintage... Say 1600 to 1800 then we are looking at virtually priceless instruments, such as Guarneri's, Stradivarius and other's from that era of Paganini, Bach, Mozart ...etc... throughout a 300 year musical window ... These instruments sometimes come up for auction at $,$$$,$$$.$$+ prices, however some owned by very wealthy patrons are loaned out to young promising virtuoso's and other's so that the public can enjoy and hear what a 1730 Giuseppe Antonio Guarneri, ( 1687-1745, third generation Guarneri also referred to as Del Gesu.) sounds like ...
Andrea Guarneri (1626-98 ) waas a fellow apprentice of Stradivari in the Amati workshop..

Modern Luthiers ( actual real Luthiers, crafstmen ) have since then, been trying to replicate the sound produced from those instruments in the modern instruments they craft... They are still searching.

Concerning expensive instruments, both of my 93-95 Larrive's acoustic were in the $4,500 range to buy new.... Any acoustic guitar with incredible tonal qualities are going to be pricey, that is just due to materials , designs and the craftsmanship involved.... Taylor makes a very consistent acoustic, but their really outstanding GC's are in the $5,000+ cost.... and those are not made on an assembly line....
Not to say that there is no value in a $700 Takamine, but the voice is not the same.... Finely crafted instruments have always been expensive, but are sought after because of their acoustical tone qualities.......
One doesn't have to pay large sums if that is not feasible... But I do urge anyone to go and compare an assembly line acoustic in the $500 to $1500 range, then compare it to a $5,000 handmade acoustic and listen for the tonal difference... :?: :idea:



When I speak of "keeping up with the Jones" I mean in relative terms. I understand that the craftsmanship that goes into a handmade Bass is much different than that of an assembly line bass. Much akin to anything else you buy. Even electric instruments. Given the limited amount of true master luthiers in the classical disciplines the high price tag is not excessive. Supply and demand being what it is. Again, apparently you missed the point. No one is arguing that a handmade acoustic guitar sounds better than an assembly line model. See the Smokey Robinson example. If you were to take that assembly line guitar and stick it in the middle of 100 other guitars all running the same chords your audience WILL NOT be able to pick that out. Anyone who says otherwise is full of sh*t. What I'm saying is that the 50k bass is likely plenty adequate, or even more adequate than a Bass in a typical orchestral arrangement needs to be. While the 100k bass might be THAT much nicer. It's not going to come through the audience in a typical large orchestral arrangement.

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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:14 am
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arth1 wrote:
TheKingofPain wrote:
We couldn't see it. However, to the person using it that little bit extra makes all the difference. Tone is in the hands, but the instrument does help. Moreover, the brain controls the hands. So if you believe that instrument makes everything you play sound infinitely better. It just might. That may be dipping into the hoodoo a bit. However, that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. As a craftsman it's not hard to imagine, though. Whether that person could do the job on a 50k bass, or not is irrelevant. They have reached a level of stature that they feel, and rightfully so, that they deserve an instrument that finely crafted. Who are we to judge? Do they NEED it? Likely not. That is irrelevant. The heart wants what it wants.


Amen.
Do I need a $2500 tele with a $450 boutique pedal and $1500 amp as my main gear? Absolutely not.
Do I feel I play better with it? Absolutely.
Do I play better depending on how I feel? Absolutely.

If I had invested enough of my life in playing, I could very well see myself buying equipment costing ten times as much as that.
For someone really good, unlike me, they may have to invest thousands of hours of practice to get just a tiny improvement that way. Then, investing thousands of dollars to get a tiny improvement or feel better about playing (which reflects in the music) might seem like a good deal.

That doesn't mean the best can't make a $80 Peavey guitar sing, and that 80% of the audience wouldn't even notice. But they don't play $80 Peaveys. I think they're well entitled to pay top dollar for top gear, even if every extra dollar gets them less and less. I don't think it's insane to pay $10k or even $30k for a guitar, if guitar is your life, and you feel better and play better. Or $80k for a standing bass, for that matter, if bass is your life.
Many people spend more on cars, golf, mistresses or other things that might be less important to them than an instrument is to a musician.


Personally, I understand it. I am myself finally thinking of getting a Custom Shop Precision. Do I NEED one? Of course not. However, I think it's almost time. I would never even consider myself a good player. However, after a certain amount of time playing any instrument you find what you like and what you don't. I'm at that point. I can pick up any P bass and enjoy playing it. Some more than others. I can pick it up and make it sound good, and gig the hell out of it.

However, I've paid at least some of my dues and I've toyed with all the different forms of the instrument I love. I've cut my teeth in plenty of different kinds of bands. Laid down tracks for people on request and for pay. I'm at the point where I think I'm ready to choose that "one tool". Luckily all the things I love about a Precision has been made by the CS in one form or another as team builds. So I don't need to order one specifically.

However, I think that time will come, too. Where I have one built specifically for me by a master. It's kind of like the way the trades work. You start out learning. Techniques, styles, tools. The basics of the trade. Then you spend your time working it. Trying to carve out a living. Even part time. By that point you feel like you're ready. It's a commitment. Not just to music, or the instrument, but to yourself as an artist and a craftsman. It's an investment not only in your tools, or your work, but in your soul.

Now. Will the audience care? Nope.

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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:02 am
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TheKingofPain wrote:
When I speak of "keeping up with the Jones" I mean in relative terms. I understand that the craftsmanship that goes into a handmade Bass is much different than that of an assembly line bass. Much akin to anything else you buy. Even electric instruments. Given the limited amount of true master luthiers in the classical disciplines the high price tag is not excessive. Supply and demand being what it is. Again, apparently you missed the point. No one is arguing that a handmade acoustic guitar sounds better than an assembly line model. See the Smokey Robinson example. If you were to take that assembly line guitar and stick it in the middle of 100 other guitars all running the same chords your audience WILL NOT be able to pick that out. Anyone who says otherwise is full of sh*t. What I'm saying is that the 50k bass is likely plenty adequate, or even more adequate than a Bass in a typical orchestral arrangement needs to be. While the 100k bass might be THAT much nicer. It's not going to come through the audience in a typical large orchestral arrangement.


It doesn't have to. The musician plays for himself as much as for the audience. And subconsciously, the main goal might be to sound as good as or better than Joe and Alice playing next to you. Even Alice with her $80,000 instrument.

Another singing example: Jussi Bjorling sang with his local church choir whenever he was home in Sweden (Swedes are nuts - I heard that something like 25% of them sing in choirs). That might not have improved that particular performance a great deal because of his voice alone, as his awesome voice would be just one out of many. But I am sure it improved how the choir felt, and how people around him did their best. And I'm sure that many of his fellow choir singers would have paid a fortune to get as spectacular a voice as his was, even if a choir performance wouldn't give it full justice.
I think the same holds true for instruments. If someone next to me was playing a Guarnieri or other awesome instrument, it would surely affect both his playing and my aspirations.


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Post subject: Re: Spoiled Guitarists: That Guitar Costs How Much?!
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:15 am
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I own a bass that would cost about six grand street price, if it were new(maybe a lot more, the body size is custom). It's worth more than that to me, being 30 years old. That bass is the only personal belonging I have to brag about...

The American Standard Precision is every bit as good. Why? The P bass has had an extra 32 years to evolve, be drop tested...time tested.


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