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Post subject: Re: Plugin torture
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:43 pm
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Jah Soldier wrote:
nicebassbro wrote:
plugins are so much easier to use. its 2014 get used to it you bunch of geezers :P


Actually, they aren't. And I don't want you to take this in any way other than logically. If you have to tweak a pedal, you have to equally tweak a plugin it's modeled after. And the same goes for any piece of equipment a plugin is modeled after.

The real reason the popularity is growing is due to space saving and cost efficiency at the expense of a lesser quality than having all of those original expensive pieces of equipment. Plugins become a "the audience won't notice the difference" alternative. It's a mentality that separates the men from the boys. I've recorded in the most expensive studio in Vegas before and seen the racks of real deal equipment fired up and in action. Didn't see a plugin used in that place.

Those "geezers" really knew how to throw down some tracks. Lady Gaga one week, Santana the next.


I get what you are saying and i agree with you 100% I guess plug ins are to cut the costs of actually having the actual equipment to record with. however, i think plug ins are a good thing. yeah id be pissed at a recording engineer too if he fiddled with the plugins in a session..however thats when you go hey bro, i like that sound lets go for it, unless you want to give me the time you tinker for free. He should already know what sounds do what. kind of his fault for not knowing his plugins.

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Post subject: Re: Plugin torture
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:49 pm
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Screamin' Armadillo wrote:
We all have opinions, and that's fine, but to discount/downgrade/ridicule everyone else's opinions while stating your own is arrogance incarnate.

You like digital technology, plugins and Squiers. Cool! If it works for you, great!

But to say that anyone who prefers tubes, tapes and higher-end instruments is foolish, stupid or a Luddite is wrong is arrogant and trollish.


Yeah, i guess i am being pretty arrogant. I guess i just feel lots of times people are brainwashed.

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Post subject: Re: Plugin torture
Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:13 am
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Just so you know, I'm not attacking you in any way.

My OP is a frustration with what I see as becoming the norm. I've used plugins in the past on some recordings. But for Christ sake, some people go so over the top with it. If you're using so many plugins that your system crashes, I honestly don't think that's a good sign.

Our House of the Sharks CD wasn't exactly radio quality. But it only cost us $1,500 and was done with a less is more approach. The less you tinker around, the more your talent shines through. That CD was done fast and furious. 12 songs in 2-weeks 8 musicians. That's a lot of tracks, and a lot of them were doubled.

Using plugins, it would have taken a year.

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Post subject: Re: Plugin torture
Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:57 am
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nicebassbro wrote:
again, i have to disagree. the tone modeling effects they have out there are un real.

Some of us prefer real. As in actually hearing the sound we make. As in being able to have both clean and dirty sounds from the same string without reaching for a knob or mouse, knowing what you play and how it reacts.

nicebassbro wrote:
and you dont always need an interface either. just get an amp modeling pedal and you are good to go.

And that helps how, exactly, in the situation discussed here, where the recording engineer wants no pedals?

nicebassbro wrote:
I do see your point, however if you aren't a dumbass and know how to mess with frequency's you can get an awesome sounding bass or guitar sound by using digital interfaces. just saying

Not real-time. Which is what a player needs. I need to know exactly when my near-unison produces beats that match the tempo I play in. I need to hear when the tracking drops on the fuzz. I need to feel just how much harder to pick to get break-up.
Show me a recording engineer that can handle "when I fingerpick this, the base note should be dirty but the fifth clean".

Plugins make simple things simple, and complex things impossible. If all you want is to pick notes like a robot and transform them into something else, by all means, go for it.
I have three DAWs, two mixers, and countless plugins. But I seldom use any of them, because I lose control.

From your posts, I take it that you don't have much real life experience yet. That's fine - that will come. But don't try to teach your grandmother to suck eggs, which is what you come across as.


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Post subject: Re: Plugin torture
Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:49 pm
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If someone does not know how to get a good guitar or bass sound then plug ins may be a good answer for that-I'm out.


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Post subject: Re: Plugin torture
Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:38 pm
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Yea, I think some things got a little lost in translation here.

Let's take out of the equation the sounds of plugins. Whether they're good sounding or not really wasn't my point with all if this.

When you walk into a studio and someone wants to plug you in direct and use plugins, you have now handed the fate of your sound and recordings to them. You aren't in control anymore. They might make you feel like you are at the time, but the reality is, you're not.

For example, there was a point where we were doing clean channel recording. I was asked what kind of sound I wanted for it. I said " how about a Fender Twin Reverb?" Ok, fine.

A Twin Reverb plugin comes up. But he doesn't mess with the controls on it at all. I say,"let's bump the treble a little". He pops up an amp modeling plugin and inserts it.

"What's that?"

It's an amp model.

"Yea but now it sounds a little grainy, I really just need a little more treble."

This is better. If I just bump the treble, all it does is bump the treble a little. Trust me, this is better.

Then he pops up an eq plugin and bumps the treble a little. But the one thing that didn't happen was a simple bump of the treble of the Twin Reverb plugin. Instead what did happen was something he wanted but I didn't ask for and 2- more plugins were used (
which will eventually be part of what crashes his Protools).

This is why I say PLUGINS ARE EVIL. It's not so much a matter of the plugin itself, as it is the process you're forced into by someone else whether you like it or not. There was no way I could convince him to simply bump the treble of the Twin Plugin. He is in control, it's his system. Deal with it.

On the flip side, if I'd brought my own HRDV, which is very good in the studio and I'm familiar with the sounds of it, and I wanted more treble, I simply reach over and turn the treble knob. Now I'm in control of my sound, and not one plugin is being used. Which in turn helps eliminate any eventual crashing of Protools.

See how much simpler it is?


I understand some of the many reasons people use plugins for their home studios. I get it. I also understand using some after tracks are recorded the more traditional way. I've done that too. An effect on a part of a song here, A little bit on another song. I get that too.

A real problem happens in a paid studio however, when you're trying to interpret the sounds you like to someone else who can't read your thoughts or interpret them, may not agree with your taste, may not know which plugin gets you there, etc. and what will happen is, his ego will take over, it's his system, and you're going to use what he likes. You will lose control every time as long as you're using his plugins. That's where the nightmare begins and 50-plugins will get used in a display of his ego boosting plugin system, then BLAM!! There goes Protools. And a lot of what just happened gets lost along with it. And a lot of time gets wasted.

I'm gonna say that over the last few recording endeavors, Protools must have crashed somewhere around 20 times due to the over use of plugins while recording my tracks. That's not to say it's just because of the guitar tracks. It because plugins are used for the whole band on every track. The whole song (and eventually whole album) is one big cesspool of plugins.

There are so many different aspects of how this process really hinders the recording process. There are a lot of different angles of how it can be good or bad. My overall assessment due to my personal experiences is that too much of it, or the over-use of it, turns the recording process into a complete mess. Keep the power of your tracks in your hands. Find ways to use less of it even if a producer or engineer requests to use them. If it's an effect you may not have on your board, fine, take a listen and decide. If it's to create your whole overall guitar sound (amp, cabinet, distortion, etc..) don't buy into it. If they have a better amplifier than you do, fine, plug it in and mic it up. I like what I use, so I'll bring it. My advice is, don't get caught up using too many plugins. You'll eventually be sorry.

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Post subject: Re: Plugin torture
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:36 am
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By the sounds of things the main issue was that the engineer didn't really know what he was doing. He should at the very least invest in a more powerful computer to facilitate all the plugins he wants to use.

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Post subject: Re: Plugin torture
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:49 am
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Tochai wrote:
By the sounds of things the main issue was that the engineer didn't really know what he was doing. He should at the very least invest in a more powerful computer to facilitate all the plugins he wants to use.

If the software crashes, that isn't a problem solved by upping the CPU/RAM of the computer. It may (or may not) raise the bar for when it crashes, but it doesn't solve the underlying problem of buggy software, and can make it even harder to troubleshoot.
Unfortunately, troubleshooting and identifying just which plugin or DAW plugin handler is to blame can be time consuming too. But if it happens repeatedly, identifying it and getting rid of the garbage should be a fairly high priority. Customers pay for production time, and don't have an unlimited amount of their own time either.

And if you know you have buggy software, you should welcome customers who bring their own equipment to simplify the job by requiring fewer plugins.

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Post subject: Re: Plugin torture
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:26 pm
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Keep in mind, I'm talking about the last 4 places I've been to record. These guys have powerful systems. But it's the same problem when a good amount of plugins get used.

As far as them maybe not knowing their plugins, I would imagine it would take quite a long time to be really good at knowing the ins and outs of a couple hundred distortions, a bunch of amp models, cab models, effect models, etc.. They are large libraries.

Vey nice people, just don't really like that way of recording things. I'd rather use what I have, especially when it comes to transferring from studio to a live show. At least then, I also know I can pull off what I record live.

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Post subject: Re: Plugin torture
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:50 am
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The plug ins just may save a guy who DOES NOT REALLY have a good ear for sound. He relies on the sound of the plug in instead of his own ear OF WHICH may not be developed . It's kind of like the guy who's a failed drummer that's wakes up one day and decides he's going to become a "SOUNDMAN". He goes out and buys all the equipment but has no clue about sound. Granted the soundmen in question in the OP's posts may have been trained BUT you can not teach a good ear. So it sounds like plug ins save people- so now this means anyone can do it. Right?

Pulling off the sounds live was mentioned and I think that is real important too. I still think back to the thing I notice most of all and that is : the guitar get's most of the attention by the plug in monster. I have nothing against that other than it seems when that happens you can end up with buried bass, no cymbal sound, clacking bass drum, etc etc. This may not be every case but I notice it especially when home recorders let me hear their stuff. Okay so... there are lots of variables and this and that but this thread is very good and I'm glad to hear/ read all this.


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Post subject: Re: Plugin torture
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:39 am
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I was just reading Pro Sound News and the quote of the week is appropriate for this discussion:

Quote of the Week
"Most recording guitarists that I know don’t care what they play through, as long as it sounds good and fits the track. That’s why it’s not a matter of either/or guitar amps or plug-ins; it’s both. You’ve got to learn to embrace the strengths of each and utilize them to your advantage. I can’t get the sound of my old BR6 from a plug-in, but that BR6 won’t sound like a cranked-up ENGL E765 plug-in. They both rock in their own way." —Rich Tozzoli.
From the latest issue of Pro Sound News;
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Post subject: Re: Plugin torture
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:48 pm
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I think plugins have their place be it modeling software or EQ/FX etc. they save money and space which is great for a budget studio. I think where the engineer went wrong here is having you (Jah Soldier) walk in with certain expectations about how you wanted to play and be recorded and killed your vibe.

I’ve worked in studios, some small ones and at least one that had the SSL 4000 and tons of rental gear available if your budget allowed. And one thing I can say is that was first and foremost important to their clients. Making them feel like they were at home so they enjoyed the recording process. A typical workflow there at that time was to record drums to two inch and the rest right into Protools. At that time most of the processing was all outboard gear. I’m sure many assistants love plugins so they don’t have to take recall notes, some might not know what a recall sheet is these days and in some ways, thanks to plugins… there’s no job market for an assistant engineer for good or bad depending on your point of view.

I can remember one big budget mix where I had to pull up my own recall notes and praying that it ALL came up exactly how it was 6 months prior or I was going to look like a total failure to my boss. Thankfully it did

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