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Post subject: Re: Buying a Fender during the 1950's & other questions
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:46 pm
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I've got a pick holder that attaches to my mic stand -- it also has a vertical spindle to keep my slide handy.

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Post subject: Re: Buying a Fender during the 1950's & other questions
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:04 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
I've got a pick holder that attaches to my mic stand -- it also has a vertical spindle to keep my slide handy.Arjay

Yah....It was just 'cool' seeing Holly's stash and knowing that we were doing the same thing in the same time frame unbeknownst to each other. It was the same way with the 2- & 4- positions on the old 3-way switch. A matter of discovery/word-of-mouth and keeping within the spirit of this thread.

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Post subject: Re: Buying a Fender during the 1950's & other questions
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:43 am
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ZZDoc wrote:
TheKingofPain wrote:
Image

Before the days when spare picks were taped to the mike boom, you stashed 'one' away under the pickguard. 8) 8)



I love this picture, but it's also really sad to me and I wasn't even going to be around for another 15 years. My mom was really into all the early rock n' roll when she was young. She can still remember where she was when she heard the news. That's the real deal right there. Now look at what passes for rock. :?

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Post subject: Re: Buying a Fender during the 1950's & other questions
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:55 am
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TheKingofPain wrote:
That's the real deal right there. Now look at what passes for rock. :?

Disagree. Holly was on the cusp of what was, as that time, an evolving musical scene. 'Race music', [which my cousin Jerry Wexler dubbed 'rhythm and blues', and it stuck], 'blues', 'doowop', gospel, country/rockabilly were intermixing, and evolving into new forms. If you examine todays music you can see how they trace back collectively and individually to what evolved out of the late 40's and early 50's, and even before that.

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Post subject: Re: Buying a Fender during the 1950's & other questions
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:20 am
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ZZDoc wrote:
TheKingofPain wrote:
That's the real deal right there. Now look at what passes for rock. :?

Disagree. Holly was on the cusp of what was, as that time, an evolving musical scene. 'Race music', [which my cousin Jerry Wexler dubbed 'rhythm and blues', and it stuck], 'blues', 'doowop', gospel, country/rockabilly were intermixing, and evolving into new forms. If you examine todays music you can see how they trace back collectively and individually to what evolved out of the late 40's and early 50's, and even before that.



I know how rock music evolved and where it came from. What I mean is guys playing in clubs. Guys who built themselves. You could still go see someone who was a name in a bar. Now you have manufactured corporate recycled junk being force fed to people. Being broadcast all over the world from stadiums. While there are talented people in there I think something was lost. There is still good music going on in bars all over the world. However, I think things changed a lot after this night. I think the vacuum left by the artists who were on that cusp you talk about. Artists who were doing things their own way and organically were replaced by people hand picked by the industry and packaged. At least that's how it seems like it happened looking back at it. While there have been musical outbursts that are very organic since then. I don't think the industry ever really backed off after that for the most part, and I think every time one of those organic outbursts happen the industry is quick to swoop in and assimilate it. Like I said. That's how everything I've ever seen or read looks to me. However, I wasn't there. So you'd know better.

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Post subject: Re: Buying a Fender during the 1950's & other questions
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:29 pm
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My last gig was a year and a half stand at the legendary Cafe WHA??? in Greenwhich Village. We were a show act playing for an audience on the same bill with the likes of Richie Pryor, Richie Havens, and a few other folk who are now legends in their own time and, unfortunately, no longer with us. That began 50 year ago this coming August. We left there in Feb '66. Hendrix and his band arrived for a short run because that's where Chas Chandler of The Animals found him. The whole music scenenow was in revolution. The 'rock and pop' we were doing was becoming passe. The US was embroiled in Vietnam and anyone of the right age and circumstance was being drafted. Something today's journeyman musician does not have to face. Once The Beatles played Shea Stadium, the club scene as a venue, a serious venue, was on the way out. I've seen bands like The Lov'in Spoonful and The Blues Project play in rooms no bigger that those you play in. CBGB's which sported the heart and soul of punk rock in the 70's is gone. The Ramones and Leslie West came out of Forest Hills High School across the decade after we did. West's first band of reknown was The Vagrants, who played local clubs in the NY Metro area. 'Kiss' grew up in Queens. You had The Peppermint Lounge with Joey Dee and The Starlighters, and on, and on, and on. The British Invasion bands got their jump in the clubs of England, Scotland, and Ireland, as well as Germany. But the money didn't roll until the major labels became involved and making it 'big' meant the USA for them. Bear in mind....that which record companies front, is an advance against future earnings and the bigger the gate, the faster you debt is paid, and the sooner you get your 'money for nothing, your checks for free, your Ferrari and countryside estate.

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Post subject: Re: Buying a Fender during the 1950's & other questions
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:04 pm
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ZZDoc wrote:
My last gig was a year and a half stand at the legendary Cafe WHA??? in Greenwhich Village. We were a show act playing for an audience on the same bill with the likes of Richie Pryor, Richie Havens, and a few other folk who are now legends in their own time and, unfortunately, no longer with us. That began 50 year ago this coming August. We left there in Feb '66. Hendrix and his band arrived for a short run because that's where Chas Chandler of The Animals found him. The whole music scenenow was in revolution. The 'rock and pop' we were doing was becoming passe. The US was embroiled in Vietnam and anyone of the right age and circumstance was being drafted. Something today's journeyman musician does not have to face. Once The Beatles played Shea Stadium, the club scene as a venue, a serious venue, was on the way out. I've seen bands like The Lov'in Spoonful and The Blues Project play in rooms no bigger that those you play in. CBGB's which sported the heart and soul of punk rock in the 70's is gone. The Ramones and Leslie West came out of Forest Hills High School across the decade after we did. West's first band of reknown was The Vagrants, who played local clubs in the NY Metro area. 'Kiss' grew up in Queens. You had The Peppermint Lounge with Joey Dee and The Starlighters, and on, and on, and on. The British Invasion bands got their jump in the clubs of England, Scotland, and Ireland, as well as Germany. But the money didn't roll until the major labels became involved and making it 'big' meant the USA for them. Bear in mind....that which record companies front, is an advance against future earnings and the bigger the gate, the faster you debt is paid, and the sooner you get your 'money for nothing, your checks for free, your Ferrari and countryside estate.



I don't know much, but one thing I've learned is that the bigger the organization. The worse it is for the individual. Be that industry or anything else. The 4th generation punk bands still play clubs. Even the one's with record labels. However, where the "names" are concerned it seems like even the "intimate" gatherings aren't really intimate. They're elitist, and small. Also, they're out of the range of the average kid. Everyone's gotta get their cut. Money is money. That's a different thing altogether. I've never been worried about money. I just think it' dilutes the connection. In the end, With the way music is shared now it's almost turned back on itself anyhow. Now you can play a gig in a dive in the middle of nowhere. Go home. Upload a video and be seen all over the world by thousands of people in a month. It may not make you any money, but at least no suit is getting rich off it. Especially for restricting access to regulated media like airwaves.

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Post subject: Re: Buying a Fender during the 1950's & other questions
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:37 pm
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TheKingofPain wrote:
ZZDoc wrote:
My last gig was a year and a half stand at the legendary Cafe WHA??? in Greenwhich Village. We were a show act playing for an audience on the same bill with the likes of Richie Pryor, Richie Havens, and a few other folk who are now legends in their own time and, unfortunately, no longer with us. That began 50 year ago this coming August. We left there in Feb '66. Hendrix and his band arrived for a short run because that's where Chas Chandler of The Animals found him. The whole music scenenow was in revolution. The 'rock and pop' we were doing was becoming passe. The US was embroiled in Vietnam and anyone of the right age and circumstance was being drafted. Something today's journeyman musician does not have to face. Once The Beatles played Shea Stadium, the club scene as a venue, a serious venue, was on the way out. I've seen bands like The Lov'in Spoonful and The Blues Project play in rooms no bigger that those you play in. CBGB's which sported the heart and soul of punk rock in the 70's is gone. The Ramones and Leslie West came out of Forest Hills High School across the decade after we did. West's first band of reknown was The Vagrants, who played local clubs in the NY Metro area. 'Kiss' grew up in Queens. You had The Peppermint Lounge with Joey Dee and The Starlighters, and on, and on, and on. The British Invasion bands got their jump in the clubs of England, Scotland, and Ireland, as well as Germany. But the money didn't roll until the major labels became involved and making it 'big' meant the USA for them. Bear in mind....that which record companies front, is an advance against future earnings and the bigger the gate, the faster you debt is paid, and the sooner you get your 'money for nothing, your checks for free, your Ferrari and countryside estate.



I don't know much, but one thing I've learned is that the bigger the organization. The worse it is for the individual. Be that industry or anything else. The 4th generation punk bands still play clubs. Even the one's with record labels. However, where the "names" are concerned it seems like even the "intimate" gatherings aren't really intimate. They're elitist, and small. Also, they're out of the range of the average kid. Everyone's gotta get their cut. Money is money. That's a different thing altogether. I've never been worried about money. I just think it' dilutes the connection. In the end, With the way music is shared now it's almost turned back on itself anyhow. Now you can play a gig in a dive in the middle of nowhere. Go home. Upload a video and be seen all over the world by thousands of people in a month. It may not make you any money, but at least no suit is getting rich off it. Especially for restricting access to regulated media like airwaves.

There's the Bonamassa model. Spent twenty some-odd years in partnership w/a business manager. Wrote and released one CD per year on the average over a period of a decade or more. Owns or controls all the marbles.

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Post subject: Re: Buying a Fender during the 1950's & other questions
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:16 pm
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ZZDoc wrote:
TheKingofPain wrote:
ZZDoc wrote:
My last gig was a year and a half stand at the legendary Cafe WHA??? in Greenwhich Village. We were a show act playing for an audience on the same bill with the likes of Richie Pryor, Richie Havens, and a few other folk who are now legends in their own time and, unfortunately, no longer with us. That began 50 year ago this coming August. We left there in Feb '66. Hendrix and his band arrived for a short run because that's where Chas Chandler of The Animals found him. The whole music scenenow was in revolution. The 'rock and pop' we were doing was becoming passe. The US was embroiled in Vietnam and anyone of the right age and circumstance was being drafted. Something today's journeyman musician does not have to face. Once The Beatles played Shea Stadium, the club scene as a venue, a serious venue, was on the way out. I've seen bands like The Lov'in Spoonful and The Blues Project play in rooms no bigger that those you play in. CBGB's which sported the heart and soul of punk rock in the 70's is gone. The Ramones and Leslie West came out of Forest Hills High School across the decade after we did. West's first band of reknown was The Vagrants, who played local clubs in the NY Metro area. 'Kiss' grew up in Queens. You had The Peppermint Lounge with Joey Dee and The Starlighters, and on, and on, and on. The British Invasion bands got their jump in the clubs of England, Scotland, and Ireland, as well as Germany. But the money didn't roll until the major labels became involved and making it 'big' meant the USA for them. Bear in mind....that which record companies front, is an advance against future earnings and the bigger the gate, the faster you debt is paid, and the sooner you get your 'money for nothing, your checks for free, your Ferrari and countryside estate.



I don't know much, but one thing I've learned is that the bigger the organization. The worse it is for the individual. Be that industry or anything else. The 4th generation punk bands still play clubs. Even the one's with record labels. However, where the "names" are concerned it seems like even the "intimate" gatherings aren't really intimate. They're elitist, and small. Also, they're out of the range of the average kid. Everyone's gotta get their cut. Money is money. That's a different thing altogether. I've never been worried about money. I just think it' dilutes the connection. In the end, With the way music is shared now it's almost turned back on itself anyhow. Now you can play a gig in a dive in the middle of nowhere. Go home. Upload a video and be seen all over the world by thousands of people in a month. It may not make you any money, but at least no suit is getting rich off it. Especially for restricting access to regulated media like airwaves.

There's the Bonamassa model. Spent twenty some-odd years in partnership w/a business manager. Wrote and released one CD per year on the average over a period of a decade or more. Owns or controls all the marbles.



He's a local. I think that model might be easier to do as a solo artist. I wonder how long a band would last with that kind of arrangement? Not that they usually last anyway.

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Post subject: Re: Buying a Fender during the 1950's & other questions
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:10 pm
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[quote="TheKingofPain][/quote]

His offices are about a 20 min drive from me.

Recall that Jaggar took over the band's financial interests and moved them to France once it became clear that both management and Her Majesty were screwing them royally.

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Post subject: Re: Buying a Fender during the 1950's & other questions
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:28 am
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TheKingofPain wrote:
I'm up on the P's history. I could have sworn I read a book where Fullerton claims that they did exist in small numbers. I wouldn't expect to see many first generation P's in CCs. I agree that with the aforementioned Bill Black, Marshall Grant, and others moving to Fenders in the later 50's that it had a lot to do with the instrument getting a burst of acceptance. Rock bands back then still dressed classy. (I always think of this photo of Waylon Jennings backing up Buddy Holly on a Precision for some reason. :( )

Image

What I mean is. After this time period, and before The Beatles. Rock became more manufactured, right? The bland sort of industry pushed stuff. Those artists still used rock bands to back them on the road. I'm sure they didnt use uprights. Also, that type of industry control would lead to things like matching suits, and guitars I'd think. So I'd think there must have been a couple pumped out for the uniform style of dress. Maybe not. I'm talking about those 59 to 63 era P's and early J's.

However, even if they were made in extremely small numbers like Fullerton hinted at. Why did so few survive? Was it because they were ordered by or for working musicians and they eventually failed and were destroyed or refined? To me that would seem likely as I don't think there would be many shop owners wanting to gamble the additional 5% on an instrument they didn't even know if they could move. (as opposed to the popular guitar)

I forget which book it was. However, I'm pretty sure I remember there being an interview or passage referencing Fullerton saying that custom basses did happen. Just very, very rarely.


Certainly, you could order basses in a Custom Color. BLACK was a custom color. Olympic White was a Custom Color. You see those a lot on early first gen P-Basses.


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Post subject: Re: Buying a Fender during the 1950's & other questions
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:47 am
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Electric basses were NOT as popular as you think until just about the time of the British invasion era and the pop surge of the early 60's.

The first genre where I recall seeing electric bass exclusively used was the guitar based SURF ROCK genre, which was almost exclusively an Orange County based west coast phenomena. Surf Rock bands featured electric bass almost exclusively and was the first genre I can recall doing that.

Pre-Motown you'd have to point to Brian Wilson and Phil Spector as also contributing to the spread of electric bass because both used a lot of electric bass in their recordings while other producers were still calling acoustic players almost exclusively. It was a slow gradual process, even in studio recordings.

While electric bass might have been perfected in 1951 the amps were not and the majority of rock and roll bass players were not electric until at least ten years after the P-Bass appeared. Rock and roll went through some real fundamental changes in the early 60's and electric bass replacing the acoustic upright was one of them.

EVIDENCE?

JOE BENSON MAULDIN bassist for Buddy Holly, later GOLD STAR STUDIOS engineer for countless landmark recordings at the famed LA studio.

Image

MARSHALL LYTLE bassist for Bill Haley and the Comets.

Image

CLAYTON PERKINS bassist for brother Carl Perkins.

Image

JAMES KIRKLAND bassist for Ricky Nelson with Kirkland's long time partner JAMES BURTON also pictured:

Image

And many many more. When I look at Bobby Darin stuff from the late 50's he was using both an acoustic and an electric in his orchestra. Also the Everly Brothers were often seen with an electric bassist by 1959. These were largely exceptions though as even in 1959 acoustic bass still dominated pop, rock, folk, country...about everything.

Should point out in fairness that Little Richard is known to have gone electric bass relatively early which influenced many R&B acts and might have been part of the reason Bill Black switched to electric with Elvis also in 1956. But when you look at the top 100 songs of 1959 only a very small percentage were electric bass songs.


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Post subject: Re: Buying a Fender during the 1950's & other questions
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:38 am
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brotherdave wrote:
Electric basses were NOT as popular as you think until just about the time of the British invasion era and the pop surge of the early 60's.

The first genre where I recall seeing electric bass exclusively used was the guitar based SURF ROCK genre, which was almost exclusively an Orange County based west coast phenomena. Surf Rock bands featured electric bass almost exclusively and was the first genre I can recall doing that.

Pre-Motown you'd have to point to Brian Wilson and Phil Spector as also contributing to the spread of electric bass because both used a lot of electric bass in their recordings while other producers were still calling acoustic players almost exclusively. It was a slow gradual process, even in studio recordings.

While electric bass might have been perfected in 1951 the amps were not and the majority of rock and roll bass players were not electric until at least ten years after the P-Bass appeared. Rock and roll went through some real fundamental changes in the early 60's and electric bass replacing the acoustic upright was one of them.

EVIDENCE?

JOE BENSON MAULDIN bassist for Buddy Holly, later GOLD STAR STUDIOS engineer for countless landmark recordings at the famed LA studio.

Image

MARSHALL LYTLE bassist for Bill Haley and the Comets.

Image

CLAYTON PERKINS bassist for brother Carl Perkins.

Image

JAMES KIRKLAND bassist for Ricky Nelson with Kirkland's long time partner JAMES BURTON also pictured:

Image

And many many more. When I look at Bobby Darin stuff from the late 50's he was using both an acoustic and an electric in his orchestra. Also the Everly Brothers were often seen with an electric bassist by 1959. These were largely exceptions though as even in 1959 acoustic bass still dominated pop, rock, folk, country...about everything.

Should point out in fairness that Little Richard is known to have gone electric bass relatively early which influenced many R&B acts and might have been part of the reason Bill Black switched to electric with Elvis also in 1956. But when you look at the top 100 songs of 1959 only a very small percentage were electric bass songs.



You mentioned Surf Rock. What about more forward thinking Rock-a-Billy or Garage Rock guys?

Guys like The Fabulous Wailers. Here in 62. (Granted not a CC)

Image

Or Bill Mack from The Knights here in 60?

Image

I would think to guys trying to break in, or get to that next level who might have already been working bassists that dropping the extra 5% to stand out of the crowd might have made sense. Unless the popular wisdom is that Fullerton might have been mistaken about the small amount of them that rolled off in the years when that option became available.

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Post subject: Re: Buying a Fender during the 1950's & other questions
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:49 am
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ZZDoc wrote:
[quote="TheKingofPain][/quote]

His offices are about a 20 min drive from me.

Recall that Jaggar took over the band's financial interests and moved them to France once it became clear that both management and Her Majesty were screwing them royally.[/quote]


Yeah, Joe comes from Utica which is 10 minutes up the road. It's good he got out. :lol: This town is the type of town people talk about when they complain about "pub rock" style scenes. Just to get a gig around here you almost have to be a cover band or play showcase shows to empty rooms. My band is one of the few in the area that tries to do both originals, and be thick enough with covers to book full 4 hour blocks. It's a pretty dead town. Not for lack of trying though. There are a lot of great people here doing really well crafted original work. It's so bad that the biggest, most popular cover band in the area that's been rolling strong for over a decade tried an original not too long ago. As soon as they said, "This one is ours" half the crowd immediately decides to take a smoke break. Good times. :?

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Post subject: Re: Buying a Fender during the 1950's & other questions
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:22 am
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TheKingofPain wrote:
It's so bad that the biggest, most popular cover band in the area that's been rolling strong for over a decade tried an original not too long ago. As soon as they said, "This one is ours" half the crowd immediately decides to take a smoke break. Good times. :?

It's understandable, though. It's not that they don't want original songs, but that they want songs they recognize, whether original or not. When a song is familiar, you don't have to pay as much attention to it, and can instead just enjoy it. That doesn't mean that people don't want to hear something new, but that a pub concert is not the right venue to give people something new. They came to relax and perhaps dance, not to learn new songs.

So how do you introduce new stuff then, if you're a pub band? Only if you have managed to catch their undivided attention, and have a captive audience. Which means you have to be Good with a capital G. Otherwise, it will send people smoking, buying drinks or going to the bathroom, and will lower the overall atmosphere.
If your stage presence isn't strong enough to grab the audience by the short and curlies, you need to invest more work on that than on writing songs, and in the mean time be the minstrels that the audience came to hear.


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