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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:40 pm
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wferguson wrote:
The only reason people think nitro is better is because one pass of nitro is thinner than one pass of poly, therefore a thinner finish, but if you had a same level thickness of nitro as you did poly they would both allow or disallow the wood to resonate the same.

People seldom talk about the sealer that is applied to the body before any finish is applied. None of the finishes are applied over raw wood because the wood will absorb it to much and getting the desired finish would be to difficult and costly. Also the colors would not be consistent because no two wood blanks will be the same in grain and pores even if same species of wood.
Reason for fullerplast use in vintage guitars and other sealers now used but not mentioned.

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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:01 pm
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Well said, cvilliera. Billy Gibbons has guitars that are covered in shag carpeting. They seem not to need to breathe.

I doubt a hard drying finish could dampen the resonance of tone wood several thousand times its thickness. Maybe if one covered a guitar body with Liquid Nails and troweled it with a 3/8ths notch trowel, one might reduce resonance.
Besides, resonance doesnt depend on breathing. How do Dan Armstrong guitars manage to project? Hardness of the dried finish seems to be key.

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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:35 pm
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Depends on how much you pay and how much you get out of your guitar for your money.

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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:51 am
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I really think much of the appeal for a nitro finish today is three-fold:

#1 - That's what they used back in the Good Old Days...

#2 - A Nitro finish will age and eventually give a Road Worn finish (poly will simply crack and discolor w/ age)...

#3 - The Herd has been made to believe that it's 'better', so the Git Makers can charge more money for it...

Those are just my thoughts...

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:37 am
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Lightnin MN wrote:
I really think much of the appeal for a nitro finish today is three-fold:

#1 - That's what they used back in the Good Old Days...

#2 - A Nitro finish will age and eventually give a Road Worn finish (poly will simply crack and discolor w/ age)...

#3 - The Herd has been made to believe that it's 'better', so the Git Makers can charge more money for it...

Those are just my thoughts...

cheers!


This appears to be an astute observation(s). An interesting juxtaposition of reason/motives. Number 3 is the zinger, capturing both the yin and yang of present life dysfunction. Herd mentality (hopefully not capability. The jury is still out on this one) and shameless opportunism, sometimes called good business sense.

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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:25 am
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Lightnin MN wrote:
I really think much of the appeal for a nitro finish today is three-fold:

#1 - That's what they used back in the Good Old Days...

#2 - A Nitro finish will age and eventually give a Road Worn finish (poly will simply crack and discolor w/ age)...

#3 - The Herd has been made to believe that it's 'better', so the Git Makers can charge more money for it...

Those are just my thoughts...

cheers!

Having done a fair amount of wood and metal work, I'd say that some of nitrocellulose's appeal for me is that you can refinish/repair it. A new layer bonds with the old one, making the work nearly undetectable.
Buffing out scratches is also easier. With normal cleaning/polishing, you almost invariably end up with lots of micro-scratches that give circular reflections. With nitro, you can buff that out. With urethane, it's almost impossible - the best you can do is buff one way so the scratches all go in one direction.

Then there's the drying. Of course, all Fenders since the 60s have a layer of plastic sealant, so the wood won't dry properly anyhow. But for the true vintage Fenders, which I believe is what we talked about here, they don't. The base layer isn't a modern sealant, but also resin-based. They don't do that anymore because of the high risks, the much longer drying time, and the need to sand down the guitar to a much smoother surface - where fullerplast fills in imperfections and hides them, lacquers highlight the flaws. So it all means cheaper production costs, and looking shiny. And a guitar where the wood won't age the same way.
But make no mistake - they're doing it because it's better for them, not better for you.


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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:08 am
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I'm just glad the whole idiotic relicing craze has for the most part died down.

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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:39 am
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wferguson wrote:
I'm just glad the whole idiotic relicing craze has for the most part died down.


I'm glad to think that it pains you when I inform you that it is still alive and well. :wink: :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:36 am
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Some of the resources used on 50's and 60's guitars are unavailable now for guitar makers.


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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:24 am
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arth1 wrote:
Lightnin MN wrote:
I really think much of the appeal for a nitro finish today is three-fold:

#1 - That's what they used back in the Good Old Days...

#2 - A Nitro finish will age and eventually give a Road Worn finish (poly will simply crack and discolor w/ age)...

#3 - The Herd has been made to believe that it's 'better', so the Git Makers can charge more money for it...

Those are just my thoughts...

cheers!



Then there's the drying. Of course, all Fenders since the 60s have a layer of plastic sealant, so the wood won't dry properly anyhow. But for the true vintage Fenders, which I believe is what we talked about here, they don't. The base layer isn't a modern sealant, but also resin-based. They don't do that anymore because of the high risks, the much longer drying time, and the need to sand down the guitar to a much smoother surface - where fullerplast fills in imperfections and hides them, lacquers highlight the flaws. So it all means cheaper production costs, and looking shiny. And a guitar where the wood won't age the same way.
But make no mistake - they're doing it because it's better for them, not better for you.

Fullerplast started in 1956 also acrylic binders in lacquer which takes more time drying but it retained the colors better and did not check over time.

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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:48 am
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Everybody has danced around and avoided the threeword/concept/philosophy/idea that is sitting in the middle of the room like a flatulent elephant:

MOJO AND VIBE 8)

My dad has restored/hot rodded a 1956 Ford Fairlane. From the outside, it looks fairly stock--he used original Ford colors of the era (and painted it to match the first "good" car he ever owned, which was a '56 Fairlane painted two-tone black over red). He did no modifications to the body. Under the hood, he went a bit more modern--he put a carburated 351W with electronic ignition, headers, etc...but it's still old technology. He customized the interior and added a few things like air conditioning and a nice stereo (still all old-style technology). To finish this project, he spent enough money that he could have bought a new higher-end Mercedes.

My daily driver is a 2008 Mazda CX-7 Sport crossover SUV. It's a nice, average looking car. Under the hood, it has a fuel-injected turbo 4-cylinder. The interior is nice, but not anything that makes you go, "WHOA!"

Which is the better car?
Well, with no insult intended to my father's mechanical skills, the Mazda is more reliable, gets better gas mileage, and with that turbo, it can whip that old Ford's butt in the eighth, quarter, half and whole mile (as well as top speed and handling and braking)...all at about a third of the price.

...but if I'm going to make an entrance and make an appearance--give me the Ford.
It looks cooler, sounds cooler, rides smoother, and just generally drips "Mojo"...

Likewise, a vintage guitar may or may not be better constructed, it may have some serious deficiencies compared to a modern instrument, and it might be harder to play, maintain or make "perfect"...
But it's cooler, because it takes us back to the time when it was new and the hottest thing going...and the fact that it survived everything it survived over the last 50+ years!

I'm probably not ever going to own a truly valuable vintage instrument (or car, for that matter, since I have to sell my old '64 Ford), but that doesn't mean that the guy who has the money to buy one is wrong or stupid...it might just be his "thing,"

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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:02 pm
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I have over a dozen pre 1970 guitars and have played at least dozens and probably hundreds more.The whole vintage kerfuffle can be quite confusing and can be the topic of much discussion and debate/arguments.I have been lucky to come across some exemplary instruments,but then again I gave them all a good audition before I committed to them. All my vintage instruments have the tones that people readily identify with the pre CBS/Norlin era. Although I lucked into some incredible guitars for incredibly low cost, I have seen people raving over the 70s or even 60s Strat etc. they bought,fooling themselves into thinking that the guitars were great because they were "vintage" all too many still equate vintage with quality but I can assure you that the percentage of dogs that went out of the factories back then was far greater than the number that get through these days with such stringent QC practices in the guitar industry.A lot of people will see a pristine '63 Strat or 61' Les Paul Custom with PAFs and automatically assume that it is a fabulous guitar.Unless a guitar has been kept under a bed or in a closet for 50 years, there can be another reason-which most people never seem to realize-why that guitar is so pristine and that isn't necessarily good news,the guitar could be in pristine condition because it sounded bad,was horrible to play,couldn't get intonated at all and any number of problems and consequently was put aside for that reason.

The worst thing anyone could do when in the market for a vintage guitar is to let your heart rule your decision over your ears,hands and mind.Some people get so consumed with the idea of getting a vintage guitar that they rationalize and aren't completely honest with themselves and they wrongly convince themselves that because it's vintage it has to be good.When hunting for a vintage guitar you have to be as vigilant and pragmatic as you would in buying a new one.

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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:33 pm
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I think when you're discussing vintage guitars it's important to look at the history of the company in order to determine if there were significant enough changes to justify the "vintage" price tag. Certainly, in Fender's case, when CBS bought out the company, most would agree that the quality didn't improve. Quite the opposite. The same can be said of Gibson. When Gibson sold out to Norlin and Ted McCarty left the company, the quality of their instruments took a nose dive. That's why I think Pre-CBS Fenders and Gibsons from the 50s and 60s really are better instruments. I think Fender of late has done a great job re-capturing the vintage vibe that the pre-CBS guitars had, but there's nothing like owning am original.


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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:12 pm
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I can remember buying my first Strat, had to have a USA Model, in red, just like Mark Knopfler's in doing so passed by a bunch of MIJ Strats, which were considerably cheaper and nobody thought much of, many of them judging by the prices on EBay, are now "Vintage".


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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:21 pm
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The Stratocaster, fantastic instrument that it is, doesn't quite have the same "vintage" mystic as say a Stradivarius even a 50's, maybe if we came back in a hundred years or so who knows, just be glad you don't hanker for one of these, I think the bow alone went for £26,000, the thieves tried to flog it for £100
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