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Post subject: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:48 pm
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I have been mulling this over for some time and I think it is time I put my thoughts to paper (digital paper) and started a discussion here on the forum. What are the causes behind 50's and 60's Fenders being put on a pedestal above all others? I have played and as you my or may not know I own a '65 Precision and have owned other vintage guitars so it is not like I am some ranter who thinks a $200 guitar is the most you should ever play or need. Now I know some may talk about amplifiers, (I have a BF '64 Bassman by the way), and I know hand wired boards are better than the eyelets, but I want this to be purely a guitar/bass discussion. I think ever since CBS started to put out their crap in the 70's and 80's it really made people want to buy the "better" used guitars of the 50's and 60's. I think that moniker has stuck ever since, even to today, how the 50's and 60's were better than the 70's and 80's, and rightly so, but today I think that doesn't hold as much water as it once did. Ask anyone who has played more than a few vintage guitars and they will there you there are duds out there, so even if it is a '62 Strat it may not be what you were looking for or expecting. And why are pickups unintentionally overwound in the 60's better than modern pickups that are intentionally overwound today? With technological advances we now get more accurate and overall better quality guitars today, and we still have the "hand made" factor included. 50's and 60's guitars may be more rarer today, but take anything made today, and 50-60 years from now see how available that product is then. I think the guitars being made today are on par if not better than those made in the "golden age", and I think Fender has done a wonderful job to undo all of the bad CBS has done to their company. Just my two cents.

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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:02 pm
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No. They're not. Nice to have though, if you can get one from a motivated seller. Junkie, divorce, bankruptcy, estate sale, etc.
It's more like owning gold or rare coins. Never take gold out in public, gnomesayin?


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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:19 pm
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Many factors to consider. If they have sentimental value, if you've owned them since new, the sound, feel, playability, etc.

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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:37 pm
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I meant this purely as someone buying one today, not someone who has owned one for a while.

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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:43 pm
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True. modern guitars are better then early ones. And the pickups in very old guitars have weakened and do not sound as they did new. It's just a mystic of owning something old in electric guitars but different with acoustic guitars because age of the wood can be a game changer in sound. Also acoustic guitars of the past were often made with wood thats endangered today in type and size plus the craftsmanship of some vintage acoustic guitars you don't see as much today but in high end ones.

Fact is a bolt on neck guitar is the easiest guitar to make and most of the work is done by machine and todays machines are much easier to use and replicate pieces.

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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:54 pm
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I think there's a lot of Hype going on w/ vintage instruments as a whole, though there are some incredible ones out there as well.

Of course, I'm not talking about provenance - an actual guitar Jimi, George, Pete, Jeff, Carlos or Keefer played. These are another story altogether.

Like today (only maybe more so), it comes down to the individual guitar. The vintage breed had their Keepers and their Dogs.

A '66 that was a Keeper in '66 is presumably still a Keeper today. Conversely, a '66 which was a Dog is still likely a Dog today (unless modified along the way).

But to many, the '66 Dog gets points simply for being an old Dog, the nostalgic equivalent of 'ripening with age'.

It seems to the Market that any older guitar, not simply a vintage one commands a higher price than it's current counterpart simply for having survived.

But I also believe that there's one significant difference between the guitars of the '50s/'60s and those of today.

The guitars of the '50s/'60s were produced with no predilection to sound or play like anything but themselves. They had nothing from the past to model themselves after.

But it was these very guitars which produced much of the Rock, Blues and Pop music many of us came to know and love, and in doing so set the formula.

I suspect that in whole or in part, today's guitars, if even subconsciously, are designed to emulate these vintage guitars so people can come close to duplicating these sounds. In other words, current guitars do have a model (or formula) to follow.

Plus, of course, there is the necessity (by the Mfgrs.) to maintain Brand/Model Identity, that is, a Stratocaster needs to sound/play like a Stratocaster, a Telecaster like a Telecaster, an LP like an LP, etc. This too shapes what we see the manufacturers producing today. And while there are more variants in today's crop, they still can't stray too far.

Buying New or Vintage is certainly a 1st World kind of problem ! :|

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:48 pm
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I owned "old" guitars back when they were still considered to be relatively "new". They happened to be fine instruments but for every good one I saw and/or played, I encountered a like number that just didn't cut the mustard. I'm still fond of vintage instruments and would dearly like to have one but I believe the lion's share of my tone comes from my vintage Fender amps -- not the guitars I plug into them.

Pero es solamente mis dos centavos......YMMV.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:31 pm
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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:17 am
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I can see them going for more if they are better guitars, but not by as much as many of them do.
Too many people selling old guitars think they're vintage (And not just old) and expect way too much for them.

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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:24 am
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Discounting celebrity owned Fenders like "Blackie" or "The Bass Of Doom" or their ilk which are a completely different ballgame from 99.999% of the vintage market, the market sets the price. Pre-CBS ones are worth it to a lot of people and especially to collectors. Collector value has to do with scarcity, originality and condition more than how it plays or sounds.

If pre-CBS Fenders weren't scarce they'd be cheaper. It has to do with supply and demand among collectors. They are a collectible commodity bought by collectors and then sold to other collectors.

To see how scarcity can impact value let's look at another collectible item, baseball cards and specifically the T206 set which contains the Honus Wagner baseball card. It is just a baseball player Litho printed card like any other card in the T-206 set which was given away free in cigarette packs from about 16 different brands between 1909 and 1911. Since Wagner was a superstar player of the day and among the inaugural inductees to the Hall Of Fame the Wagner card would be more valuable than other cards in the set. But it is many times more valuable. A bit over a decade ago a Wagner card sold on eBay for $1,250,000 and about 6 years ago another one sold for $1,600,000. Other cards (the ones called commons featuring everyday players) in the same set sell for $25 or less today. Cards in this set featuring other players of Wagner's popularity and accomplishments sell for $5000 to $10000. The sole reason for this disparity is scarcity. There were tens of thousands of the other player cards made, but less than 200 Wagners and possibly as few as 50 were ever distributed. Of the few that were printed there are only a handful that remain in decent shape. Nobody knows for sure why, but the Wagner card was a very short run. Even one in very poor condition would be worth $50,000 to $100,000.

So like a rare old baseball card pre-CBS Fenders are so pricey because there are so few of them and not because they are good. They are highly prized by players because they are generally considered better made with more hand finishing and with nitro finishes but players aren't so picky about condition or originality. I think part of the reason actual players like the older ones is because of fairly dramatic variations in neck shapes. Don't like the '54? Try the '59! Fender changed neck back shapes more often than Cadillac changed the size of their tail fins during the Pre-CBS era.

It is true that in the pre-CBS era there were duds, just as today there are duds. In fact many collector class near mint ones started out as duds which is why they are still near mint condition. Nobody played it much so it looks like new. Most collectors want the near mint ones. These are the people that don't play their collectible guitars, they just hoard them so they don't care how they sound or play. Players should be wary of a near mint Pre-CBS instrument. In general there is a reason it is still near mint and I'd rather have one in fair condition to play.

Vintage pickup poles can be re-magnetized and restored, so that is a non-issue.


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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:23 am
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I think it would be cool to have a guitar that was made the same year I was born(59). However I know I will never be able to afford a vintage 59 strat. But, I can save my money and buy a 59 reissue in sherwood green!

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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:00 am
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Fender used to sell a dream. These days, they more and more try to sell a piece of living history.
Nothing wrong with that, but it's like if 90% of what Ford made were 50's and 60's reissue cars and replicas.

What the past had was the human touch. Which means more variable quality. Most of the time, inconsistency is for the worse, but sometimes you get something better than you imagined too, which you'll never get with consistent quality. Heck, modern quality control would likely reject a guitar that had surprising qualities.

So yes, if you want the very best, you have to look among vintage or handmade. And be prepared to go through a lot of not-so-good overpriced stuff before you strike gold. "Modern vintage" is the worst of both world - old hardware with modern robotics ensuring there won't be deviations and a single brilliant one among them.

And then people pay extra to get a fake aged look too. How come we don't see "heavy relic" cars being sold? Because it's stupid, that's why. You may fool others, but you'll never fool yourself.


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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:57 am
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arth1 wrote:
And then people pay extra to get a fake aged look too. How come we don't see "heavy relic" cars being sold? Because it's stupid, that's why. You may fool others, but you'll never fool yourself.
I've known a LOT of guitar players in my nearly 50 years of gigging and I have to say I met plenty who were quite capable of fooling themselves. Just saying... :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:48 am
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arth1 wrote:
... "Modern vintage" is the worst of both world - old hardware with modern robotics ensuring there won't be deviations and a single brilliant one among them.


Not sure I agree with this one. I think the AVRIs are some of the best instruments Fender is offering. Since I own one, I never miss the chance to pick one up in the store and play it for comparison purposes. So far, I only found 2 which seemed 'off'. The rest were all on par with mine. These, IMHO, combine the best of both worlds, not the worst.

It seems that a lot of work went into their development too. For example, I have a factory parts list for my '57 AV. It's dated 4/28/2000. But the guitar was only available 2011-12. I was surprised that in today's business world, Fender would be doing product development that far into the future.

arth1 wrote:
And then people pay extra to get a fake aged look too. How come we don't see "heavy relic" cars being sold? Because it's stupid, that's why. You may fool others, but you'll never fool yourself.


Agree. One thing I find odd is that many want their guitars relic'd (to the point they pay extra for it), but they want their amps pristine.

Why not go the whole hog ? Let's see some BFRIs w/ slashed, cigarette burned, beer bottle ringed Tolex, Moth-eaten Grill Cloth, control knobs with the numbers worn off & half missing and tarnished & rusty bright metal !

That would complete the package.

Who knows, this may open up a whole new market for Fender. :lol: :lol:

cheers!

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'11 FSR Am. Vtg. Ltd. Ed. CAR '57 Stratocaster (SN# LE02639)
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Last edited by Lightnin MN on Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Are vintage guitars really worth it?
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:51 am
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arth1 wrote:
Fender used to sell a dream. These days, they more and more try to sell a piece of living history.
Nothing wrong with that, but it's like if 90% of what Ford made were 50's and 60's reissue cars and replicas.

I would buy a "reissue" car if it had the safety features, performance and reliability of a modern car...and Ford and Chevy and Dodge all do this (on a small scale)...have you ever seen the retro-styled Mustangs, Camaros and Challengers?

Quote:
"Modern vintage" is the worst of both world - old hardware with modern robotics ensuring there won't be deviations and a single brilliant one among them.

I have to disagree with this statement as well--the re-issues (American or otherwise) are generally good to great (with a certain percentage of dogs mixed in there) and the Modern Vintage guitars I've played have been pretty good instruments with quality above their price point (again, with a certain percentage of dogs there, too)...

As far as vintage guitars, there are great ones, good ones and bad ones in that mix...it's just the reality of mass-produced products. I have to try on a couple (or more) pairs of Levi's every time I buy new jeans, because at least one pair will be cut "wrong" for my body...likewise, not every Fender (vintage, new or otherwise) will "fit" me.

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