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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:19 pm
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Rdog wrote:
I kinda see it this way.

Unless your actually splitting a monitary value, meaning $$$ from record sales from your song, not just performance rights from a said gig where as you meet criteria to recieve anything, then its just bragging rights(which is ok) .But it seems all us dreamers devilop nasty egoes. Sometimes ruining long relationships , friends along the way..
Bottom line. if your fortunate enough to create something that moves millions , either by yourself our co-writing then i think credit will go where credit is do. And those who do will deep down just know.

I agree with you to a point; I have never let this particular argument ruin a long-standing FRIENDSHIP...however, if some random dude I've been playing with in a band decides that he wants credit where none is due for himself, or refuses to give me credit where it is due, I will not tolerate that.

And it's not just ego; if that person decides to take the song that I wrote, copyrighted it under his own name, and then promoted it to a person who can or does record it and make some money off of it, I have just potentially lost out on some money.

...just like all the early rock & rollers and blues cats who lost out on millions of dollars.

Do you think Hound Dog Taylor wished he had copyrighted "Hideaway", especially after John Mayall and the Bluesbreakers recorded it?

It may or may not be ego, but I'm not going to let somebody else put their signature on my painting.

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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:15 pm
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My 2 cents would be if everyone contributes to writing a song then everyone gets songwriting credit. Simply put, no songwriting credit for the killer solo or the kickassa drum fills and so on. :D

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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:39 pm
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Okay, guys.

Let’s say that I’m part of a five-piece band with myself on vocals/guitar, Evan on lead guitar, Tim on bass guitar, Tom on drums, and Pat on rhythm guitar. All five of us are considered equals.

In the band, there are TWO collaboration sessions during the songwriting process.

Collaboration #1:
I initiate the creative process with the record producer (sometimes I do the same with the lead guitarist and/or some of the other members of the band). The producer and I conceive the basic structure of a song (introduction, verses, pre-choruses, chorus, bridge, and ending). Also, the producer and I generate the lyrics, melody, hooks, riffs, chord progressions, as well as the song’s overall vibe.

Collaboration #2:
The entire band meets in order to flesh out and beef up the final product. The entire band essentially builds from what the producer and I have concocted. The entire band finalizes the arragement, and decides on the instrumentation. All band members provide their artistic input as to how the song should progress. All band members make suggestions regarding the song structure, melody, hooks, riffs, chord progressions, and (of course) harmony. Musically, each band member has free reign over his individual part- I prepare the power chords; Evan the guitar solo and any improvisions; Tim the complementary bass line; Pat the accompaniment and (maybe) additional riffs; and Tom the tempo, drum fills, and cymbol crashes. In no way do I tell Tim which bass line to play, or tell Tom which beat to play. I trust their instincts.

I must mention that in the CD liner notes, each band member has his own “Thank You” sections. Plus, the liner notes contain a blurb that clearly states the following- “All songs arranged and performed by [insert band name]”.

In this scenario- Who should get the songwriting credits? Just myself and the producer? Or the producer + the entire band?


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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:02 am
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It's looks like you're doing it right, IMHO.

You and the producer wrote the song--you two get songwriting credit.

The band completed the arrangement of the song, and it sounds like you're giving them credit for this in the liner notes; therefore, everybody should be happy.

Think about this--Charlie Watts has (assumably) never had to be told what to play in a Rolling Stones recording session. His abilities and instincts make everything work with little or no suggestions...his fills, licks and arrangements make the songs sound like a Stones song as much as Keef's riffs and Mick's vocals...yet he doesn't get songwriting credit, because he "arranged" instead of "composed."

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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:31 am
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Not to beat a dead horse, but I have one more experience to share regarding the proper way (in my humble opinion ) to give so writing credit.

The Screamin' Armadillos were in a state of flux; we had a guitarist fired/quit due to his onstage drinking habits, we had another guitarist quit over the opinion that we (the other three members) didn't appreciate (or pay) him enough for his contributions (which consisted of him playing guitar--no writing, no singing, no "support" of our other abilities), and the blues venues that were our bread and butter were folding left and right.

I asked the bass player to help us find another bassist and start to play guitar with us (he was an equally good guitarist/bassist). I also asked him to play the second guitar part on a song I had written several years previously, and we (as a band) had performed a hundred times.

The song was an instrumental and is called "Travis County Line." I wrote it as an homage to all the Austin guitar slingers I admired (specifically, the Vaughan Brothers, Derek O'Brien and Charlie Sexton). We had performed it a specific way since since I composed it. It was basically a guitar duel between myself and the second guitarist, whoever that may be.

When I asked Terry (former bassist/new guitarist) to play on the recording of this song, he asked if he could play it "differently" than it had been played with the other two guitarists that had been in the band, and I said, "Sure, go for it..."

He totally changed the fabric of the song; not being as influenced or familiar with the Austin Guitar Army as I am, he approached it with a Stones-y "is that a rhythm line or a lead line or both?" method, and made it better than I had ever imagined. If you heard the two different versions side-by-side, you would think they were significantly different.

Since the song was totally different, I gave him songwriting credit, much to his surprise...had we already recorded it or copyrighted it, I would have labelled the song "Travis County Line (Reprise)" and given him songwriting credit on it, just as I had with another song I wrote about earlier, but this was a new recording of a song that I had failed to copyright, the song now has his name attached to it (and rightfully so).

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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:55 pm
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If the liner notes read "All songs written by myself and [producer]; All songs arranged by [band]"- Would my bandmates seem like hired-gun musicians?


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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:19 am
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Jericho-79 wrote:
If the liner notes read "All songs written by myself and [producer]; All songs arranged by [band]"- Would my bandmates seem like hired-gun musicians?

No, many/most bands have a primary songwriter or two.

While the Doors and REM's tradition of "all names on all songs" is cool, it can lead to other problems later...
...remember Michael Anthony's issues when he left Van Halen? Eddie started claiming that MA didn't really write, he just played and arranged, leading to some legal and personal problems within the band.

Your plan should work, if everybody is on board with it.

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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:47 am
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Not vital, IMO.

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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 2:37 am
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Solid Body Love Songs wrote:
My 2 cents would be if everyone contributes to writing a song then everyone gets songwriting credit. Simply put, no songwriting credit for the killer solo or the kickassa drum fills and so on. :D


green day and u2, thought I remembered that, some good info on this thread though.

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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 5:46 am
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I know in our band it's getting tough. Three of us write lyrics, but we also still play some songs that were lyrically written by our original drummer. (which he is cool with and it is agreed that he will get credit on it, of course) However, I write the vast lion's share of the music when it comes to deciding key, chords, and arrangements and swings and the like. Basically 99% of the music for our entire catalogue. So on songs where I also write the lyrics it's basically all me. No big deal. I'm cool with a generic "band" credit even on those. Because honestly I don't think any of it is ever going to amount to anything anyhow, and even if it does I want people to reap the rewards for the work they put in.

However, where a generic "band" credit is used how does that work with former members? Do you need to spell it out in the fine print on each release. (ie: for all songs on this release "BAND" refers to blah blah, blah blah, and blah blah?) Because our current drummer is a great guy, and a killer drummer. However, he doesn't really contribute anything except his expertise at his instrument. So I don't feel that it'd be fair to give him writing credit when he's just come in and laid his parts over existing work. Also, and this where the 99% comes from. One of our songs. One we are actually planning on recording as a B side for a single release later next month was built around a riff one of our former guitarists had. So in that instance he had the guitar hook, and I built a song around it, and it's our original drummers lyrics. However, since he left we tore the song down and the riff is no longer there. So basically his initial input other than what key it's played in is gone. Does he still get credit? Personally, I'm cool with it because honestly the song wouldn't exist in the form it does without his initial input. However, I don't know if the others would be cool with that. In addition, our current guitarist (our singer sometimes holds down rhythm to free him up) writes lyrics and helps on music since he's been in the band, but also many of the songs he plays on predate him. He's only playing rhythm guitar on a lot of these tunes. Does he get credit?

The whole thing's a mess, and I honestly want to make sure everyone is taken care of. Because even the members who have departed the band are all still friends. So I want to make sure that should anything come of it that they are compensated for what they do. However, I don't what the best way would be to really handle this. Would it just be better to do each song individually? Give credit for lyrics, music, collaboration, ect at the time the version of the song being published is created?

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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 11:39 am
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guitslinger wrote:
... Richards and Jagger treated him like dirt when if it hadn't been for him they'd be washed-out old bar band players by now ...

They would be a "washed-out old bar band"??? :lol:

Brian was a very talented guy, and I get that maybe Brian did not get fair treatment. But ... CLEARLY ... Jagger and Richards could have figured out how to be a tour-de-force without him in the picture. Consider that after Brian, the Stones did manage a "few"well-written hits without him ...

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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 8:30 am
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A band should understand the difference between composing, arranging and production.

Only then can they decide who is credited , and for for what.


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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:16 pm
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I wrote this on another similar thread by the same OP, but it seems to apply here even more than over there:

I think this is one of those "Chicken or Egg" questions...there's no real "correct" answer.

In my band, we write together, separately and sometimes both.

For example, the first song my drummer and I collaborated on started out as some stream-of-consciousness lines of poetic prose on his part; he had visited London and came back with a fictional tale of a broke busker with three pounds (£3) to his name...the lines had no structure, half of them didn't rhyme, he had no idea what to do musically, but there was a definite "something soulful" to the incomplete lyrics.

I took some music I had written (for a totally different song), adjusted the meter of his lyrics, made them rhyme and used one of the lines ("I got three pounds in my pocket") as the hook and the intro to each verse and the chorus...

...together, we wrote a great song, but who wrote what?
I definitely wrote the music, but did I really "write" any part of the lyrics, or was it just "adjusting" what was there?
Fortunately, we are very open and honest (as well as close friends), so we agreed to just list it as "written by Drummer/Guitarist-Singer" (not our real names, obviously). Since the main part of the song was started by him, we put his name first.

Also, since I had a completed song that no longer had music, (the lyrics from which I stole the music for "Three Pounds"), it gave me an opportunity to re-visit and re-write a melody; the songs share a similar meter and rhythmic riff, but I changed the bpm, the key and the agressiveness of the song itself, and came up with a song that is sonically similar but different enough to not sound like a re-hash.

We had a similar situation occur later, where I had some good lyrics but no real strong feeling about what to do with them musically. I gave the lyrics to him and said, "Finish this." Two weeks later, I went to the studio and he said, "Add something..."
He had the drums, guitar(s), bass, keyboards and vocals already cut; I added background vocals and harmonica, and we were done.
Interestingly, he couldn't make the lyrics work as originally written; he cut out half the lines in each verse, and made the chorus a bit less wordy...I took the discarded lyrics and created a "reprise" of his version with similar music and the same chorus, except with me singing lead and he singing backup. Those two songs will be the bookends for an album we're halfway through recording.
...and the way we gave so writing credit was this: "Him/Me" on the first version, and "Me/Him" on the reprise version...we're probably never going to make money off of either (or any) of our songs, but we can definitely make sure everybody know who wrote the dang things!

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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:18 am
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cvilleira wrote:
Jericho-79 wrote:
I just need some clarification, guys.

During the crafting and development of a song leading up to its final recording sessions-

What is the difference between "arrangement" and "instrumentation"?

They are the same thing.


I beg to differ, but arrangement and instrumentation are two COMPLETELY different things. Instrumentation may be a PART of the arrangement, but the arrangement encompasses a much broader scope than that.

The real discipline of songwriting has been slowly degrading over the years as the ability to record and produce your own CD's has become more accessible. But in days of yore when you had REAL producers backed by REAL record companies, the arrangement was typically driven by the producer. This encompassed things like having a distinctive song opening and ending, some form of instrumental tag or theme used throughout a song, changes in dynamics, and occasionally changes in structure such as adding a bridge or a unique set of accents or instrumentation to differentiate a specific verse and have it stand out from the rest. They were also responsible for developing the thematic sound of a given CD which often set the tone for what songs might fit, and what ones might not. Only rarely did producers ever get songwriting credits and that was only if they were responsible for solely writing a specific thing like a bridge or instrumental transition. Even then, it was rare.

The best example I can point to is the Beatles. George Martin was solely responsible, for example, for the harpsichord instrumental transition in Penny Lane, but the songwriting credits were still only listed as Lennon and McCartney.

I think a lot of this confusion comes into the picture because we no longer really have this kind of formalized structure in the songwriting and recording process. And because of that we also have a lack of discipline and knowledge about formal songwriting and arrangement techniques.

As for myself, I'm old school. When I write the song I write the lyrics and music, I have the structure laid out whether it's a verse/chorus or verse/chorus/bridge arrangement, the opening and closing tags, and in my mind (and notated on the music chart) I have an idea of the key things that need to be done at what parts in the song whether it be dynamics or specific parts by the bassist, the drummer, the guitars, and the vocalists.

I don't do this because I want to retain sole credit for writing a song. I actually could care less if the band decides we all want to share credit. But I am particular about a song being COMPLETE and CORRECT in terms of songwriting and production values. Personally if the song is just an undisciplined hack job I'd just as soon NOT be listed on the songwriting credits.

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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:09 am
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dunedindragon wrote:
cvilleira wrote:
Jericho-79 wrote:
I just need some clarification, guys.

During the crafting and development of a song leading up to its final recording sessions-

What is the difference between "arrangement" and "instrumentation"?

They are the same thing.


I beg to differ, but arrangement and instrumentation are two COMPLETELY different things. Instrumentation may be a PART of the arrangement, but the arrangement encompasses a much broader scope than that.

The real discipline of songwriting has been slowly degrading over the years as the ability to record and produce your own CD's has become more accessible. But in days of yore when you had REAL producers backed by REAL record companies, the arrangement was typically driven by the producer. This encompassed things like having a distinctive song opening and ending, some form of instrumental tag or theme used throughout a song, changes in dynamics, and occasionally changes in structure such as adding a bridge or a unique set of accents or instrumentation to differentiate a specific verse and have it stand out from the rest. They were also responsible for developing the thematic sound of a given CD which often set the tone for what songs might fit, and what ones might not. Only rarely did producers ever get songwriting credits and that was only if they were responsible for solely writing a specific thing like a bridge or instrumental transition. Even then, it was rare.

The best example I can point to is the Beatles. George Martin was solely responsible, for example, for the harpsichord instrumental transition in Penny Lane, but the songwriting credits were still only listed as Lennon and McCartney.

I think a lot of this confusion comes into the picture because we no longer really have this kind of formalized structure in the songwriting and recording process. And because of that we also have a lack of discipline and knowledge about formal songwriting and arrangement techniques.

As for myself, I'm old school. When I write the song I write the lyrics and music, I have the structure laid out whether it's a verse/chorus or verse/chorus/bridge arrangement, the opening and closing tags, and in my mind (and notated on the music chart) I have an idea of the key things that need to be done at what parts in the song whether it be dynamics or specific parts by the bassist, the drummer, the guitars, and the vocalists.

I don't do this because I want to retain sole credit for writing a song. I actually could care less if the band decides we all want to share credit. But I am particular about a song being COMPLETE and CORRECT in terms of songwriting and production values. Personally if the song is just an undisciplined hack job I'd just as soon NOT be listed on the songwriting credits.



This used to be something done by bandleaders, aswell. I do this with our songs. Sometimes it gets nerve-wracking as if you let some musicians they'd simply attack every song in the same manner. Instead of trying to give each song what it needs. As we've gone on I have to fight with the band to go back and examine swings, individual instrument parts, intros and outros if appropriate and the way a bridge should be handled if used. Whether as a way to breakdown the energy in a song, or as a means of building it up for the last chorus. There's nothing more frustrating than a band that wants to "phone it in".

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