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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:42 am
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so what your saying then is if a song is finished .. and someone sings doodley doodley doo at the end that wasnt there that they should get a full credit inthe song writing process ????


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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:14 am
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This is the way we (the Screamin' Armadillos) have assigned credit:

-Whoever brought the original song to the band rehearsal/recording session gets automatic songwriting credit.
-If the song significantly changes in the process of rehearsal or recording, songwriting credit will be given to the person who suggested or initiated the change.

For example:
I (by myself) wrote a song called "She Said I'll Leave You". We recorded it as written, and all was good. The other guitarist jokingly suggested we re-do the song as if it were a Jimi Hendrix song, and we did it just to blow off some steam...fortunately, the recorder was still on, because when the drummer/producer listened to the playback, it was really good; we went back and re-recorded the vocals and added a keyboard part, and labelled the song "She Said I'll Leave You (Slight Return)"...
In this scenario, I had written the entire song--chords, tempo, melody, lyrics, etc. but the other guitarist had brought a change to it that fundamentally changed the fabric of the song, so we included both onto the same CD and I got credit for the "normal" version and he and I together got credit for the "Slight Return" version.

-Also, if a person gives me an idea (a lyric or riff), I'll give them partial songwriting credit for the song that I finish; depending on who wrote the greatest portion of the song is whose name goes first.
For example: My drummer's wife said something that struck him as a cool line for a song, so he called me and said, "Here's a lyric, finish the song." When I eventually did that, he added a few more lyrics himself. The songwriting credit went to me first (since I wrote 90% of the song), then him (because he wrote another 9%) and then his wife (because she wrote the original single line that inspired the song to be written.

The drummer and I collaborate a lot, and if it is a 50/50 split on how much we wrote, whoever came up with the original idea is whose name goes first.

We've all agreed this is fair, and no one has complained yet.

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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:40 am
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yeah that is fair because theres a large change . but to add a note or two or a drum thin thats not really writing more into it . my band worked basicly that way . if you added something that made change then you got a credit .


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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:50 am
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Just because a Pilot fly s a plane surely does not deserve credit for the design engineering of plane.

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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:29 am
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I just need some clarification, guys.

During the crafting and development of a song leading up to its final recording sessions-

What is the difference between "arrangement" and "instrumentation"?


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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:57 am
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Jericho-79 wrote:
I just need some clarification, guys.

During the crafting and development of a song leading up to its final recording sessions-

What is the difference between "arrangement" and "instrumentation"?

They are the same thing.

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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:15 pm
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A word of caution for bands/individuals writing and recording original songs...

I wrote a song--melody, lyrics, chord changes, arrangements, the whole nine yards. When we recorded it, I instructed the "other" guitarist what I wanted him to play on the lead guitar part. I asked him to play a specific "style/sound" I was going for. He complied, but his personality and style of playing came through (which was a good thing--it was everything I asked him to do, yet it sounded like him, giving the song a "band" sound rather than a "solo artist" sound.
However, this jack wagon thought he should get full songwriting credit on this and several other songs, because he played a (in his words) "killer solo that made the song work."
This, in spite of the fact that I wrote these songs years (in one case, one and a half decades) before I ever met him, and we (the Screamin' Armadillos) had performed these songs many, many times before he joined the band.
I politely informed him that this was total hogwash, and he would only receive songwriting credit on a song that he had something to do with the composition of. This and other factors led him to leave the band years later...in part because he couldn't write his way out of a paper bag and insisted that his guitar parts (rhythm and lead) were as important as the structure, chord progressions, and lyrics of the songs the other band members wrote.

I began recording simple versions of the songs I wrote after this--the rhythm line, riffs/hooks, melody and lyrics--before pitching songs to individuals who might have similar ideas...that way, it would be known who wrote it and when. It's not selfishness or ego on my part--I'll give songwriting credit to a person who completely changes or adds enough to the song to deserve it...but just because a guy plays a solo--killer or otherwise--on a recording doesn't mean he had anything to do with the writing of the song.

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Last edited by Screamin' Armadillo on Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:21 pm
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If arrangement and instrumentation of a song means as much as the original composition, Jimi Hendrix's name would be on "All Along the Watchtower." However, we all know Bob Dylan actually wrote that song...even if Hendrix did the definitive version of it.

Or what about Joe Cocker and his versions of Beatles songs, Traffic songs, and Billy Preston songs? We know he did an awesome job on each of them, even changing the songs to where they were unrecognizable from the original versions, but by no means did he write those songs.

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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:09 pm
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Screamin' Armadillo wrote:
I began recording simple versions of the songs I wrote after this--the rhythm line, riffs/hooks, melody and lyrics--before pitching songs to individuals who might have similar ideas...that way, it would be known who wrote it and when. It's not selfishness or ego on my part--I'll give songwriting credit to a person who completely changes or adds enough to the song to deserve it...but just because a guy plays a solo--killer or otherwise--on a recording doesn't mean he had anything to do with the writing of the song.


Thanks , I think this is a good advice. Luckily I have established this as a habit I guess half unconsciously , considering these possible issues

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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:20 pm
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Screamin' Armadillo wrote:
If arrangement and instrumentation of a song means as much as the original composition, Jimi Hendrix's name would be on "All Along the Watchtower." However, we all know Bob Dylan actually wrote that song...even if Hendrix did the definitive version of it.

Or what about Joe Cocker and his versions of Beatles songs, Traffic songs, and Billy Preston songs? We know he did an awesome job on each of them, even changing the songs to where they were unrecognizable from the original versions, but by no means did he write those songs.

Exactly--but whoever arranged those songs certainly deserved the arranging credit--and I do believe they got it.

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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:24 am
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Some fantastic advice from SA there, couldnt agree more. Ive had an almost identical situation with one of my longest standing drummers over the years, led to a big falling out which we have never properly recovered from. Basically he felt that his drum parts had changed the songs so much that he deserved equal writing credits, whereas i had played the songs in question with a few previous bands and had recorded before i even ever played them with him.

My approach now is that songwriting credits go to any contribution that is essential to the song, anything else is decoration, instrumentation, things that may colour and shape the song, but without them the song is still recognisable. SO if a guitar solo is great, but without it the song would still be the song, then it doesn’t get a credit, but if the guitar solo breeds a riff that ends up being intrinsically linked to the song and the song may not be recognisable with it, then the credit goes to the writer of that particular hook as well. The Hendrix `all along the watchtower` example already used here is the perfect one, as everything Hendrix did to it was incredible, surely the ultimate in decoration and colour, but strip it all away to the chords and vocal melody/words and it is still Dylan’s recognisable song. Its not that different in a band setting, sometimes the band are just covering the song already set in stone by the songwriter, other times the band writes it all together, no right or wrong way, but I think its best to represent what truly happened as accurately as possible on the credits to avoid future bad feeling down the line, and also so the listener can see who has done what. For example, bands like the chilli peppers often just split the writing credits 4 ways equally, whereas the beatles would state who wrote what song. I personally prefer the beatles approach as a listener as I appreciate knowing which songs were brought in by george, which by paul, which were written together by paul and george, which ones ringo wrote (so you can skip them straight off) etc etc.

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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:43 am
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Thanks for all the kudos! This was hard-earned knowledge, so I think it's only right that it's shared, in order to save headaches and heartaches for other people...

One other thing on this subject: I have no problem sharing credit for something that someone majorly contributes to, but many people don't feel the same way.

I was jamming with a guy who wrote two verses and the rhythm line/chord pattern (which he--consciously or unconsciously--stole from Golden Earring's "When the Bullet Hits the Bone"), and asked us (the drummer and myself) to help him complete.
The drummer suggested several instrumentation changes--adding a keyboard and a slide guitar part--and I suggested he slow the song down about 15 bpm (it was too frenetic and rushed sounding). None of these were major "genetic" changes in the song--just arrangement suggestions. We didn't expect songwriting credit for these changes.

The drummer later suggested a musical chord change/bridge which we could play a solo over, and I gave a suggestion as to what to sing in a chorus (additional lyrics)...both of these were major changes to the basic (incomplete) song he brought to the jam session, and deserved songwriting credit.
The guy agreed to add everything we suggested to the song, and we jammed to it/worked on it for another hour or so before we had to go home. The guy declared the song "finished" and said, "I couldn't have done it without y'all."

Two weeks later, we got together again to jam (and perhaps record), and the drummer asked about the song we had worked on together...the guy angrily said,"WE? What do you mean 'WE'? I wrote that song--y'all just jammed with me on it!"

Needless to say, we didn't allow him to record the song in our little studio.

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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:07 am
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Jericho-79 wrote:
Hey everyone. I'm a huge fan of U2, Green Day, Pearl Jam, and Aerosmith.

In U2, Bono is the primary lyricist, and all musical composition is always credited to the entire band.

Likewise, in Green Day, Billie Joe Armstrong is the primary lyricist, and all musical composition is always credited to the entire band.

In Pearl Jam, Eddie Vedder writes most of the lyrics. However, Pearl Jam's music is often composed by various, individual members of the band.

In Aerosmith, Steven Tyler and Joe Perry often collaborate with outsiders in order to pen the band's songs.

Generally speaking- Do all of the band members contribute to the songwriting process?

Is it necessary to have all of the band members get songwriting credits?


For instance- Do the rest of the members of Aerosmith mind that Steven Tyler, Joe Perry, and a bunch of outsiders are writing all of the band's songs?

I mean- If you were the bass player of a rock band, wouldn't you want to come up with all the basslines? If you were the drummer of a rock band, wouldn't you want to come up with all the beats and fills?



If I were a pro bass player, hanging with the big boys....

I'd want credit if I were present and playing during the writing process, and had last say in what I played. I'd also want credit if I contributed a later overdub bassline that happened to add melody, and or change the chord structure(like if I put a 3rd over the guitar's root note). I'm worth my reasonable demands. Won't join otherwise.

If I joined a band that had all the parts done before I joined(ex. Metallica's St. Anger), I would only ask for concert bank.

This is all within reason.


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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:12 am
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I think it's been pointed out, but to me it's important enough to emphasize the difference between writing and arranging.

If you've sat down and put lyrics to chord progressions, and established the basic framework or outline of the thing, then you've essentially "written" the song.

As you present the song you've written to other musicians or producers, you either open the door to some changes in the flow, instrumentation, tempo or that sort of thing... or you don't. Either way, you're now arranging and not so much "writing" anymore.

There are some cases where a completely fleshed out chord progression, including middle 8, solo parts, intros and outros, might be written without any lyrics at all. I've been guilty of this. If a singer/songwriter pins some lyrics and a vocal melody to your chord progression then.... you're co-writing.

This is not a black and white thing. There are thousands of ways to describe the writing process and even more to define a "song".

I just think it's important to understand that things like adding a bass line to an otherwise finished song doesn't mandate songwriting credits... in MY opinion.


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Post subject: Re: Is it vital for all band members have songwriting credit
Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:01 pm
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I kinda see it this way.

Unless your actually splitting a monitary value, meaning $$$ from record sales from your song, not just performance rights from a said gig where as you meet criteria to recieve anything, then its just bragging rights(which is ok) .But it seems all us dreamers devilop nasty egoes. Sometimes ruining long relationships , friends along the way..
Bottom line. if your fortunate enough to create something that moves millions , either by yourself our co-writing then i think credit will go where credit is do. And those who do will deep down just know.

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