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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:41 am
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Lightnin MN is definitely on the right track.

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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:01 am
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Each of these threads have smacked of, "I am sooooo much smarter than the rest of you yay-hoos and I thank God that He made me that way!"

Many guitars of a particular type sound similar. That's why a guitar will have a "Strat tone" or a "Tele tone" or "Les Paul tone"...but to say all Strats/Teles/Lesters with similar pickups and strings sound the same is ludricrous and arrogant.

/done arguing

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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:09 am
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Snowjoe wrote:
I swear the day I make a video of me stacking two guitars together to see if they sound different instead of actually playing my guitar is the day someone needs to come and take them off of me.


This. I guarantee you that neither Jimi nor Kurt nor any other person who ever made a memorable song spent even 0.05 milliseconds pondering this issue.


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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:38 am
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Screamin' Armadillo wrote:
Each of these threads have smacked of, "I am sooooo much smarter than the rest of you yay-hoos and I thank God that He made me that way!"

Many guitars of a particular type sound similar. That's why a guitar will have a "Strat tone" or a "Tele tone" or "Les Paul tone"...but to say all Strats/Teles/Lesters with similar pickups and strings sound the same is ludricrous and arrogant.

/done arguing

And you don't smack of being so much smarter than the rest of us?

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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:01 pm
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mhowell wrote:
Screamin' Armadillo wrote:
Each of these threads have smacked of, "I am sooooo much smarter than the rest of you yay-hoos and I thank God that He made me that way!"

Many guitars of a particular type sound similar. That's why a guitar will have a "Strat tone" or a "Tele tone" or "Les Paul tone"...but to say all Strats/Teles/Lesters with similar pickups and strings sound the same is ludricrous and arrogant.

/done arguing

And you don't smack of being so much smarter than the rest of us?

No, because I'll accept someone else's opinion, I'll admit that there is the possibility that I'm wrong, and I don't speak in absolutes where there may be none.

I've been playing guitar since I was a teenager, and I'm now in my 40's. My opinions about certain guitars/amps/pedals/etc. change periodically, but I have never stated that my "truths" (in actuality, opinions) are "truth" for anyone else.

Case in point: I am not much of a Les Paul player. I Love the looks, history, mojo and vibe of the instrument, but I've never owned one or had a burning desire to own one. I love them in other player's hands (Billy Gibbons and Jimmy Page are the first two that come to mind), but I've never really liked MY results when I have played them.

If that had been the personal experience of the OP, he would have undoubtedly stated, "All Les Pauls suck, because I can't get 'my' tone out of them..."

Likewise, if he hears no difference between ten different Les Pauls/Telecasters/Stratocasters/whatever, that's fine; that's his experience and his "ears". But starting multiple threads, citing the same (highly subjective and flimsy) evidence each time, to state an opinion as fact...that IS arrogant and condescending, especially considering the subject has been put to rest with an overall "we'll agree to disagree" conclusion.

He has become much like the individual who continually insists Xhefri has tried to falsify something, when there's no corroborating evidence.

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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:13 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Lightnin MN wrote:
According to Newton, an object either is at rest or moves at a constant velocity, unless acted upon by an external force.

That means, once a string is 'energized' by being strummed or picked, it will vibrate indefinately unless acted upon by another force.

We know the string does not vibrate indefinitely in our World.

This because the Wood, Nut, Saddles, Air Density and Gravity act upon the string and remove Energy from it, often converting it to Heat Energy which leaves the system.

Each of the variables noted above have a measurable effect on the loss and the rate of loss, as well as the frequency (vibration) of the energy imparted to the string.

Change any of the variables, such as Type of Wood, Nut, Neck-to-Body connection, etc., and you change the rate of loss or frequency, or both.

This can have effects strong enough to be distinguishable by the Human Ear (or some Human Ears) and is often dubbed Tone.

Much of the rest is anecdotal or subjective... Discuss


In the scenario as described above, would a guitar resonate longer when played in the vacuum of outer space where there are no gases, noble or otherwise, nor wind currents or gravity to attenuate the vibrating strings.

:wink:

Arjay


Well that's a bit of a trick question.

Resonance is usually associated with the propagation of sound waves and since they will not propogate in a vacuum, the answer would be NO.

But, resonance is really the tendency of a system to oscillate with greater amplitude at some frequencies than at others. Even small periodic driving forces can produce large amplitude oscillations, because the system stores vibrational energy.

Resonance occurs when a system is able to store and easily transfer energy between two or more different storage modes (such as kinetic energy and potential energy in the case of a guitar string). There are measurable losses from cycle to cycle, called damping. When damping is small, the resonant frequency is approximately equal to the natural frequency of the system, which is a frequency of unforced vibrations.

When Resonance is viewed in this way, the answer would be YES ! In the system you describe, the strings would still vibrate (while making no 'sound') and vibrate for a longer period than here on Earth. That period may be miniscule, but measurable nonetheless.

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:34 pm
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Screamin' Armadillo wrote:
Each of these threads have smacked of, "I am sooooo much smarter than the rest of you yay-hoos and I thank God that He made me that way!"
There's a lot of truth in that statement but it could be used to make incorrect assumptions. I apologize if the following sounds like nit-picking but I think there's an important difference between smart and knowledgable. The word smart implies intelligence in any dictionary I've ever looked at. Perhaps it's vanity but I like to think I'm fairly intelligent yet there are lots of things I am not knowledgable about. We are blessed on this forum to have some folks who are quite knowledgeable in their areas of expertise but I don't think that knowledge is enough on its own to conclude or disprove how smart a person might be.

That being said I totally agree that sometimes people come off as being snooty, especially on subjects like this one.

I also totally agree that the comment that all guitars sound the same if they have the same pickups is without merit.

Getting back to the discussion at hand I still think Lightnin MN is on the right track, particularly with respect to his understanding of how resonance is absorbed. Combining those comments with guitslinger's comment on page two of this thread (which I think is particularly insightful) and also a bit of spacewolf's comment on page three about mechanical systems you can arrive pretty close to where I stand on this. The only thing I disagree with about spacewolf's comment is the part about the pickups vibrating along with the wood having any affect on tone … unless it is viewed with an eye toward dissipation of resonance rather than enhancement.

I hope I didn't come off sounding snooty there.
:lol:

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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:21 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
I still think Lightnin MN is on the right track
Agreed, LMN has a done a fine analysis.

BMW-KTM wrote:
The only thing I disagree with about spacewolf's comment is the part about the pickups vibrating along with the wood having any affect on tone
I agree with this too. At that point, I was just brainstorming...and apparently not doing a very good job of it. :oops:

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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:00 pm
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going into scientific theory (or fact in a couple of cases here) is all great. but the video clearly proves a point. THE point.

about the sustain and resonance. again, how can a guitar with no body or fingerboard (or real neck) sustain and "resonate" for exactly the same amount of time as a les paul or a double neck guitar or whatever providing it has the same brige, nut and pickups?

to me (again this as i said at the start is my opinion on my findings recently) a fender telecaster and a fender strat with the same pickup in the bridge will sound identical if they have the same saddles. literally identical. the ashtray around the pickups has absolutely nothing to do with the sound of the guitar's pickups.

i was the andertons.co.uk video's alot and they always say the following "the gloss on the neck just gives the guitar that lovely glassy tone of the gloss". it's in their heads. if anything the gloss on the neck would muffle the sound of the tone (if there was any when plugged in) compared to a rosewood board. they just "think" it sounds glassy because the neck looks glassy.

there's another video where they have 2 mim's. both with the same pickups. but different models. and the guy says "there's a noticibly brighter tone out of the second one". so i paused the video at both points and played them 1 after the other over and over and they were competely 100% identical.


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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:00 pm
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tobougg wrote:
... i paused the video at both points and played them 1 after the other over and over and they were competely 100% identical.


That proves absolutely nothing. The only suitable audio format for critical comparison is wav files. Studio quality speakers or headphones also have to be used. On my computer I can't hear the difference between M&M and Kid Rock. Ok maybe that is a bad example, but I think you understand.

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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:29 am
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tbazzone wrote:
Well you pay for more than just sound. Playability for one it's gotta be comfortable, it's also gotta stay in tune for more than a song.

Those things are important, but I do believe other things on a guitar affect the sound.
ANd the nut actually doesn't affect the sound when you fret the note, just on open strings.

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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:21 am
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tobougg wrote:

there's another video where they have 2 mim's. both with the same pickups. but different models. and the guy says "there's a noticibly brighter tone out of the second one". so i paused the video at both points and played them 1 after the other over and over and they were competely 100% identical.


I don't usually get involved with things like this because I think it's an utter waste of time but seeing as I'm enjoying a nice Saturday morning lie in!

When I bought my MIM Tele I tried 3 of the same model at the shop, the only differences being one was sunburst, one was midnight wine and one was the one I bought, it's blue but I can't remember what shade.

Now each one of these, despite being identical models, sounded different. Maybe only a subtle difference but different all the same.

I'm not claiming to know why they sounded different and to be quite honest I couldn't care less either, I bought the one I liked the sound and feel of best.

The main point here being I think that video is probably a crock of it.


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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:48 am
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tobougg wrote:
going into scientific theory (or fact in a couple of cases here) is all great. but the video clearly proves a point. THE point.
Absolutely!
Science and fact don't mean nuthin'.

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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:12 am
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:lol:

Yeah, I ugree. Everbody knows you caint lern nuthin from books. Them that kin read, thank they are sooo much smarter thin everbody else.

:lol:

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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:18 am
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You really have something there Snowjoe,I have mentioned many times before about trying at least 10 Strats-many the same models-one day on a Strat buying trip and even the ones that were physically identical had subtle tonal variations from each other. After almost 50 years of playing guitar and even longer at keyboards I have developed a pretty sensitive ear for detecting even the slightest variations in EQ and tones and there can be marked differences between the tonal footprints of seemingly identical guitars.Anyone who has been playing seriously and constantly for a long period of time will likely develop an ear for detecting such changes.After trying all these Strats I bought the one that had the sound I was hearing in my "mind's ear".

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