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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:49 pm
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tobougg wrote:
ok, so after the last topic, i've been looking into this subject extensively (does the wood and materials you use have any effect on the sound of your guitar, and does the quality of the wood make it have nicer tone like we're led to believe).

and my conclusion is no :( not in the slightest!

i started looking at a les paul with a burstbucker 2 and 3 in it. and a gibson sg with a burstbucker 2 and 3 in it. both had the same bridge and both used d'darrio strings.

they are, without a doubt. 100% identical.. how is that possible?

i also played other guitars. an ESP KH2 with an emg81 in the bridge, and a gibson epiphone piece of junk that had an 81 stuck in the bridge aswell. both using different bridges. and they sounded identical also.

so it's the pickups, the stringsm the bridge, the nut. thats it! im convinced now :*(

im not trying to start an argument, but i've just recently gotten back into guitars properly and sarted to love them again. and i wanted to add another great guitar to my collection, but as i was going to lay down up to 2200 euro's on it, i wanted to know i was buying something real, and not a myth etc.

if thats the case, why do people buy SG's for rock and les paul's for blue's etc, if they're identical, and just look different (proving the hardware is the same).

thanks guys


Interesting topic, to say the most, yeah all guitars do all sound the same or very similiar that's what makes them guitars, me thinks? :?


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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:56 pm
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tobougg wrote:
You guys would rather say troll etc than watch the video i linked


Yes. Because there's no reasoning with zealots:

tobougg wrote:
proving without a doubt that


You have already made your mind up. Now please take your soapbox elsewhere.


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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:37 pm
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I'm willing to admit that I don't really understand exactly where tone comes from, good or bad. I've spent alot of dough on my current tone, and I'm very proud of the results. Maybe that poor soul in the vid provided should take some time to appreciate what he does have, instead of letting the internet bother him as much as it seems to. Would you rather be able to hang with the text book know it all's online...or have your playing where it should be?


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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:41 pm
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To the OP:
Do you happen to have a fire burst finished Stratocaster?

You've stated your opinion, you've referenced some highly subjective videos, and we've all agreed that you're entitled to believe whatever you like...let it go.

If your theory is true, buy the cheapest playable instrument you can find, slap your favorite pickups, strings and nut on it, and you'll be happy.

...and we'll be happy too, because you'll be too busy playing that piece of crap to pollute the forum any further.

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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:39 pm
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tobougg wrote:
mhowell wrote:
tobougg wrote:

well if you watch the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtnx-gnMrTQ

it looks like a fact, not an opinion?

Doesn't look like fact at all. First, it was demonstrated that wood has no magnetic properties. Classic strawman, no one ever argued that wood affects tone magnetically. Wood affects tone physically which is clearly shown first thing in the demo.

He then does a demo with the one Les Paul lying on top of another. A change in tone is clearly heard when he separates the guitars while he is stating there is no difference. It's absurd.

So it is clearly demonstrated that wood has an acoustical property that affects the way a guitar sounds and then we're asked to believe that pickups filter out these acoustical properties only from the wood but not the strings, bridge, and other hardware.

So please explain how pickups differentiate between the physical properties of the wood and nothing else.


when he lifts the guitar up and puts it down, the sound difference is the neck felxing and causing the strings to expand/subtract... i thought you would have know the difference between a pitch change and a tonal change mate.. "absurd" is correct ...

Any pitch change from lifting the guitar would be so slight as to be imperceptible.

You don't get to just make stuff up.

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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:49 pm
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Well i have 2 Tele's, and an SG and they all sound way different, so not wanting to put any kind of tuppence into the equation! Tobougg, you owe me £6, as that piece of crap copper bracelet never worked lol!! ;)

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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:05 pm
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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:26 pm
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The playability and aesthetics also come into the equation on high end guitars.

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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:12 pm
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I just watched the video, painful though it was to watch that awkward guy constantly gloating about how much money he is making just for being obnoxious. Here is my take on it.

He made a good point about non-wooden guitars, but his science is flawed. In the first place, laying one guitar on top of the other doesn't add mass to the guitar on top, it adds weight to the guitar on the bottom. By his reasoning, if you lay your guitar on the ground, you would be adding the mass of the Earth to it - wrong. Gravity works the other way. The guitar on the bottom was merely exerting what is called the "normal force" that any sold surface exerts on something resting on it, equal and opposite to the force of gravity. If he could have played the guitar on the bottom and gotten the same tone as usual, it would have been more convincing.

What he is overlooking is that a guitar is an electrical-mechanical system, not just an electrical system. I had one of my guitars sitting on the guitar stand, so I put one hand on the body and plucked the low E string. I could feel the vibrations in the body. While wood certainly isn't magnetic, the pickups are attached to the body, which means they will vibrate with it. That means there will be a net affect in how the field from the strings interact with pickups, although I have no idea how pronounced that affect is, and it might even be negligible.

I think the only way to do a controlled experiment would be to have two guitars which are completely identical except for the woods.

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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:04 pm
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The wood resonant issue has always been a fascinating one to me. Take for instance Strats and Ibanez RGs. There are pickups suspended from the wood and mounted to a piece of plastic by screws and springs, which is then mounted to the body with screws on the outside edges. Some Strats and RGs are 2-point trems that are being held by two screws going into the wood and two more screws with a metal plate holding metal springs, which are mounted to a metal block mounted to the trem. RGs with Floyd's are suspended from the wood as well.

It is a bit fascinating when you think about it, and yet, I've run across dead sounding wood bodies acoustically on Strats and RGs and it still translates through the overall sound of a guitar.

Another one to think about is swimming pool routs. Does the big cavity with a plastic top create a higher resonating chamber? I think it would be a cool experiment to take a guitar routed for 3-singles, record it, rout it to a swimming pool, then put the same loaded pickguard back on, and re-record. It's an interesting thought to me anyway.

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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:26 pm
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I'm tone deaf.

I can't tell the difference between any guitars, honestly.

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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:22 am
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My last word on the subject:

For an Electric guitar, it's all about Physics.

In particular, the physics of the strings.

Two principles in play here:

Newton's 1st Law of Motion (Principia Mathematica Philosophiae Naturalis circa 1686)

and

Maxwell's Theory of the Conservation of Energy !!

According to Newton, an object either is at rest or moves at a constant velocity, unless acted upon by an external force.

That means, once a string is 'energized' by being strummed or picked, it will vibrate indefinately unless acted upon by another force.

We know the string does not vibrate indefinitely in our World.

This because the Wood, Nut, Saddles, Air Density and Gravity act upon the string and remove Energy from it, often converting it to Heat Energy which leaves the system.

Maxwell says that all this 'lost energy' can be explained and measured.

Each of the variables noted above have a measurable effect on the loss and the rate of loss, as well as the frequency (vibration) of the energy imparted to the string.

Change any of the variables, such as Type of Wood, Nut, Neck-to-Body connection, etc., and you change the rate of loss or frequency, or both.

This can have effects strong enough to be distinguishable by the Human Ear (or some Human Ears) and is often dubbed Tone.

Much of the rest is anecdotal or subjective... Discuss !! :D

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:12 am
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Lightnin MN wrote:
According to Newton, an object either is at rest or moves at a constant velocity, unless acted upon by an external force.

That means, once a string is 'energized' by being strummed or picked, it will vibrate indefinately unless acted upon by another force.

We know the string does not vibrate indefinitely in our World.

This because the Wood, Nut, Saddles, Air Density and Gravity act upon the string and remove Energy from it, often converting it to Heat Energy which leaves the system.

Each of the variables noted above have a measurable effect on the loss and the rate of loss, as well as the frequency (vibration) of the energy imparted to the string.

Change any of the variables, such as Type of Wood, Nut, Neck-to-Body connection, etc., and you change the rate of loss or frequency, or both.

This can have effects strong enough to be distinguishable by the Human Ear (or some Human Ears) and is often dubbed Tone.

Much of the rest is anecdotal or subjective... Discuss


In the scenario as described above, would a guitar resonate longer when played in the vacuum of outer space where there are no gases, noble or otherwise, nor wind currents or gravity to attenuate the vibrating strings.

:wink:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:49 am
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I swear the day I make a video of me stacking two guitars together to see if they sound different instead of actually playing my guitar is the day someone needs to come and take them off of me.


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Post subject: Re: ugh, im now convinced :(
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:05 am
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If you have seen any of his other videos - and there a a lot of them - you will realize that he is not playing with a full deck of cards.


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