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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:54 am
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Kreature wrote:
Q: What gives an electric guitar it's tone ? A: Pickups, Pots, Caps, Bridge, Strings, Picks Frets, Nut, Amplifier, The rest is in the players hands. Acoustic guitars factor in the wood so they are a different story


Place the same pickups in an LP style say one Gibson then one Epiphone, than Fender Strat then a Strat clone, Tele, PRS, etc., ect.. Why does each guitar sound different if all else is the same except for wood and body design?


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:16 am
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Blertles wrote:
arth1 wrote:
Turn your amp up.
Knock on your guitar in various places.
Where is the sound coming from?
Why does it differ depending on where you knock?

According to your theory, there would be no sound, and it definitely would not sound different depending on where you knock, because there's no vibrations going from the wood into the pickups, right?
So perhaps it's aliens. Wearing copper bracelets.


That's not resonance, that merely cranking your amp up loud enough to hear your hand knocking it when your banging away on the surface. That's the mechanical energy of the impact of something being transferred from the body to the strings, then through the pickups as they are magnetic to the strings.


I think you overlooked the last question, "Why does it differ depending on where you knock?"
That is resonance. And there's nothing magic about it being a knock, that's' just an easy way to reproduce it. It can be caused by sound waves from your big amp stack vibrating the guitar, the bridge vibrating, or anything else. Sure, it's going to be much lower than the resonance in a hollow body instrument. But unless you have a marble slab guitar, it's going to be there, coloring the sound when you play.

Blertles wrote:
That's why if there was any 'good' resonance from a Stratocaster, it's purely accidental and highly improbable as no-one does any testing to this extent.

Non sequitur. Accidental does not imply improbable.

I am certain that the really good guitars were the result of Leo Fender not being a musician or attempting to achieve or avoid any tonal qualities, and had pretty lax quaity control in the early days. Wider margins will cause more deviations, on both sides. Inconsistencies give you more and worse duds and more and better brilliants. The long tails on the bell curve become fatter on both sides.
Today, with much higher quality control and rigid specs, a much larger number of instruments will be exactly the same. You will get fewer bad ones, which is good for Fender, but also fewer that's unintentionally better than the rest, which is bad for us.


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:20 am
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I can honestly say that I've never heard a Fender Stratocaster that wasn't awesome. Most of the knockoffs from other companies even sound alright.


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:37 am
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SNick wrote:
Kreature wrote:
Q: What gives an electric guitar it's tone ? A: Pickups, Pots, Caps, Bridge, Strings, Picks Frets, Nut, Amplifier, The rest is in the players hands. Acoustic guitars factor in the wood so they are a different story


Place the same pickups in an LP style say one Gibson then one Epiphone, than Fender Strat then a Strat clone, Tele, PRS, etc., ect.. Why does each guitar sound different if all else is the same except for wood and body design?
There is the bridge, The nut, the difference in resistance in volume and tone pots, the capacitors used in the tone circuit, there are factors that will cause this but the wood is irrelevent. Guitar pickups are magnetic, wood is not, the only thing that affects the tone of an amplified electric is the hardware and the circuit itself, you can have two seemingly identical pickups but no two pickups are wound to such precision, two pickups same brand there will be variances,. same with potentiometers, two potentiometers reading 500k there will be a variance, wood is not ferro-magnetic therefore whatever sound it contributes acoustically will not be picked up unless you are using either microphonic pickups or a piezo transducer, All a guitar pickup does is transfer the strings pitch breaking the magnetic field and turns that into am electric signal to be amplified, Tone of an electric comes from the guitars complete circuit, the bridge, the nut, the strings used, a pick, and the players hands, the wood in no way affects the magnetic field being received by the guitars pickups, ie you can not hear the wood once you plug in to an amp, any difference you hear between different models with supposedly the same pickups have much to do with the variances between pots, caps, and pickup windings,


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:16 am
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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:33 am
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Kreature wrote:
There is the bridge, The nut, the difference in resistance in volume and tone pots, the capacitors used in the tone circuit, there are factors that will cause this but the wood is irrelevent. Guitar pickups are magnetic, wood is not, the only thing that affects the tone of an amplified electric is the hardware and the circuit itself, you can have two seemingly identical pickups but no two pickups are wound to such precision, two pickups same brand there will be variances,. same with potentiometers, two potentiometers reading 500k there will be a variance, wood is not ferro-magnetic therefore whatever sound it contributes acoustically will not be picked up unless you are using either microphonic pickups or a piezo transducer, All a guitar pickup does is transfer the strings pitch breaking the magnetic field and turns that into am electric signal to be amplified, Tone of an electric comes from the guitars complete circuit, the bridge, the nut, the strings used, a pick, and the players hands, the wood in no way affects the magnetic field being received by the guitars pickups, ie you can not hear the wood once you plug in to an amp, any difference you hear between different models with supposedly the same pickups have much to do with the variances between pots, caps, and pickup windings,


You say this as if it were fact. Unfortunately for you, you are quite wrong. You fail to consider three things:
1: One of the fundamental principles of magnetism is that when A affects B, B affects A with the exact same power.
2: What causes electricity isn't what you think. It's physical movement of a magnetic field relative to a coil. That is the sum of two things - the movement of the magnetic field, and the movement of the coils.

Yes, the pickups vibrate too, and cause sound by doing so. Much of these vibrations come through the wood.
Different pickups have different fastening methods, to encourage or dampen the vibrations.

And then there's #3:
3: The bridge and nut are fastened to the wood. Vibrations in the wood will transfer into the strings through the bridge and nut.

You can certainly deaden an electric guitar if you so want. Lead grommets deaden sound vibrations quite well. But the resonance coloring the sound ever so subtly is what gives a guitar character. Most of us want that.


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:20 pm
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Kreature is completely correct. this is a video that proves 100% that the type of wood, the type of circuits, even completely different pickups in this case. All played through an amp with a bit of gain in it. In this video there isn't even a TINY bit of difference between the guitars. as i said before it's just pickups in a certain amount of wood (any wood) and a couple of other minor factors that generate the "tone" not the tonal qualities of the wood, and if the neck is made from maple or birsey maple etc.

These 2 guitars sound identical, yet they were built thousands of miles apart, and not even a single piece electornically or mechanically are using the same process or materials. so how come they are identical? ... because they are humbuckers in a particular weight of wood with the same gague strings and the same player/plectrum used.

Not how amazing the grade of the wood anywhere on the guitar is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZMS5QhXr_U

tell me im wrong here?


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:58 pm
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tobougg wrote:

tell me im wrong here?

TB, why in the world would you want to be wrong? Do you have the sniffles or a headache, because you're complaining a little bit. I liked the sound of both of those guitars, why change that? The playing, well I suck playing six strings sometimes but that guy blew and sucked and blew and sucked again which is perverted, only good if you're in Wendy-O-Williams band, just kidding he played very cool. 8)

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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:19 pm
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Solid Body Love Songs wrote:
tobougg wrote:

tell me im wrong here?

TB, why in the world would you want to be wrong? Do you have the sniffles or a headache, because you're complaining a little bit. I liked the sound of both of those guitars, why change that? The playing, well I suck playing six strings sometimes but that guy blew and sucked and blew and sucked again which is perverted, only good if you're in Wendy-O-Williams band, just kidding he played very cool. 8)


it just kind of proves even more to me that the wood the guitar is made from is irrelevent. pinwood body vs swampash (or maybe alder?) and there isn't even the tinest bit of difference. i'd love to find out there is subtle differences depending on those tiny little things that everyone talks about. but they're mass produced guitars, and to me only the pickups, maybe the nut and bridge, and thats it. and of course how i play it the wood doesn't matter a jot


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:42 pm
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tobougg wrote:

it just kind of proves even more to me that the wood the guitar is made from is irrelevent. they're mass produced guitars, and thats it. and of course how i play it the wood doesn't matter a jot


TB, happens to me too, yeah it matters, blue days gray days. :D 8)

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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:05 am
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arth1 wrote:
Blertles wrote:
arth1 wrote:
Turn your amp up.
Knock on your guitar in various places.
Where is the sound coming from?
Why does it differ depending on where you knock?

According to your theory, there would be no sound, and it definitely would not sound different depending on where you knock, because there's no vibrations going from the wood into the pickups, right?
So perhaps it's aliens. Wearing copper bracelets.


That's not resonance, that merely cranking your amp up loud enough to hear your hand knocking it when your banging away on the surface. That's the mechanical energy of the impact of something being transferred from the body to the strings, then through the pickups as they are magnetic to the strings.


I think you overlooked the last question, "Why does it differ depending on where you knock?"
That is resonance. And there's nothing magic about it being a knock, that's' just an easy way to reproduce it. It can be caused by sound waves from your big amp stack vibrating the guitar, the bridge vibrating, or anything else. Sure, it's going to be much lower than the resonance in a hollow body instrument. But unless you have a marble slab guitar, it's going to be there, coloring the sound when you play.

Blertles wrote:
That's why if there was any 'good' resonance from a Stratocaster, it's purely accidental and highly improbable as no-one does any testing to this extent.

Non sequitur. Accidental does not imply improbable.

I am certain that the really good guitars were the result of Leo Fender not being a musician or attempting to achieve or avoid any tonal qualities, and had pretty lax quaity control in the early days. Wider margins will cause more deviations, on both sides. Inconsistencies give you more and worse duds and more and better brilliants. The long tails on the bell curve become fatter on both sides.
Today, with much higher quality control and rigid specs, a much larger number of instruments will be exactly the same. You will get fewer bad ones, which is good for Fender, but also fewer that's unintentionally better than the rest, which is bad for us.


Refer to my previous post.

You forget there are variables to your theory. Such as pickups- the hotter they are, the louder you will hear the knock. Amp settings, even your amp- if you didn't have your guitar plugged in, then you wouldn't hear your 'resonance'. I'm afraid just knocking on the guitar with the amp cranked up is a rude and inaccurate way to test resonance. Infact, it's a good way to demonstrate mechanical energy.

What I am talking about, is acoustic & mechanical resonance. The frequency of string vibration vs the natural frequency of the guitar body. If you subjected your guitar to a high frequency vibration test, you will find that the guitar will react best and vibrate to a particular frequency. The variables in this will be the type of finish, how thick the finish and how dense the wood is.

Banging blocks of wood against a guitar body blank (like the Fender Customshop demonstrates on its master builder videos) is a highly inaccurate way to demonstrate how a guitar will sound. Why? Because impacting blocks of wood and string vibrations are two completely different things and have entirely different frequencies.
For a good example of what I'm talking about, a glass will shatter under a particular frequencies,because it vibrates at its most intensity. Buildings will collapse under certain earthquake frequencies and in others it won't.

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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:30 am
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with my newest guitar, it's the arched (steam pressed) solid spruce top, and big fat flatwound strings...when played acoustically.
when plugged in (about 50% of the time so far) it's the above, plus the DeArmond Rythym Chief p'up, going thru a 2x12" Blues Jr. pre-amped w/3x NOS Mullard 12AT7/ECC82 tubes.

either way it sounds amazing !

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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:58 am
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My bass guitar changes sounds a good bit with big weather shifts..especially hot to cold and humid. It gets all rubbery sounding. I'm not sure if it's affecting the tone, or the sustain. I notice this with every bass...high end or not. My skin changing might also have something to do with that.

Some of the worst guitars sound great to my ears, like those cheap acoustics the country blues guys used to record with. I also dig late 60's-70's made in Japan Teisco stuff. I wouldn't stand on stage with one, but they're great for a little spice in a recording. My friend used to have this MIJ Harmony short scale P bass. It just oozed thick and puffy notes...all over the neck. It was like magic. The body was made of plywood. Then there's Rickenbacker. I think they're horrible guitars...but why the heck do they all sound so great? Has there been a bass yet that'll out-sustain the 4001?


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:46 am
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Hi wildinthestreets,it's apparent that my experiences and findings with guitars vary greatly from yours.I have owned Strats for 40 years and played those belonging to others even before that and I couldn't even hazard a guess how many I have played over the past almost 5 decades but is quite considerable to say the least.In this time I have played some Strats that were real dogs even among the "Holy Grail" 50s Strats and my favourite Strats of all the "L" series.Conversely I have played some from the much maligned CBS years Strats that were incredible guitars and the same goes for the often down-trodden 90s MIM Strats.My nephew used a '95 MIM Strat for over 15 years and other guitarists routinely asked him if he was using Duncans,Lollars etc.No matter what the product whether TVs, toasters,guitars,cars or whatever their is bound to be the odd one that's not quite up to scratch.Anything that contains any number of components is going to increase its potential for breakdown etc. exponentially as the number of its components increases.

I have developed a very good ear over the years but I have to say that I haven't encountered any changes in the sound or timbre of any of my guitars or basses when the weather changes,even with dramatic changes.The only changes that I've experienced are neck adjustments needed in drastic humidity changes and they are few due to the constant use of a dehumidifier.I literally live next to the North Atlantic and a dehumidifier is essential if you have musical instruments.I find it very interesting that our experiences differ so much-oh well stranger things have happened I suppose.

BTW: What is it about Rickenbackers that you find horrible?You said that they sound great but didn't explain what makes them horrible.The necks of Rickenbackers are often said to be among the best in the business and the fit and finish of them is incredible-especially their different colour bursts and how they're applied,so there isn't really a lot about them that I can see would be horrible-please explain.Re Teisco:Skunk Baxter of Steely Dan played some of his most incredible and memorable lead breaks on old Teiscos and often used them on stage to replicate the original tone.

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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:54 am
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I'm just a sucker for Strats. My niece's Affinity sounds amazing to me. Actually..one of the best Strats I've heard was an old later 70's/early 80's Westone. It was shaped slightly different, but I'd call it close enough. Sen Ash body..probably had ceramic OEM Dimarzio's...not sure. That thing was amazing. That brings me to think...maybe the original design of the Fender instruments is really beyond Fender as a company, kind of like whoever modernized the violin, cello..double bass...etc. The designs are now standardized.

I do hear big changes with weather, but I also have always used 40's on my basses. Not sure if that matters, or not. Cold weather seems to make my bass go.."bonk". Even the opens strings lose sustain to my ears. This is in Columbus, Ohio. My observation could be mislead though...really. It could just be that my skin and hands change with the weather...and change my sound.

I've owned a couple 4001's. I've never played one that wasn't free of dead spots. That's most important to me...but there are a few things about the Rick's design that I can't tolerate. Binding on a neck is just a bad idea. Most of the Ricki basses I see have this. Another one is the finish on the fingerboard. Both of these features make it especially hard to change the frets...which are down to the nub out of the factory. All that metal they use, which I think is low grade stuff...doesn't belong on a $2000. bass guitar. The bridges are next to impossible to intonate...and the adjustment screws always strip out. Rickenbacker electronics, imo...aren't much more worthy than the Teisco stuff. They could also use some stronger maple for the neck. After all that...they still sound really good.


Last edited by WildintheStreets on Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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