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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:16 pm
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tobougg wrote:
well like it or not, im a member of your lovely club, and it is actually a lovely club. people from all walks of life just in love with fine instruments. i admit i did start a bit p**sed because im just fed up of thinking people are getting ripped off. but i think im starting to see that it's not just about what you hear. it's about what you feel for the instrument also


TB, cool reply. I know it would take forever to go through all of the threads on this Forum. The benefit of that attempt would be that you would then know most subjects about tone have been covered many times, and, there are members here that are acutely intelligent about all things guitar related, Fender solid body electric guitars especially. If I haven't already done so, welcome to the Forum TB. We like pic's as well as questions, have fun here. :D

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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:12 pm
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Solid Body Love Songs wrote:
tobougg wrote:
well like it or not, im a member of your lovely club, and it is actually a lovely club. people from all walks of life just in love with fine instruments. i admit i did start a bit p**sed because im just fed up of thinking people are getting ripped off. but i think im starting to see that it's not just about what you hear. it's about what you feel for the instrument also


TB, cool reply. I know it would take forever to go through all of the threads on this Forum. The benefit of that attempt would be that you would then know most subjects about tone have been covered many times, and, there are members here that are acutely intelligent about all things guitar related, Fender solid body electric guitars especially. If I haven't already done so, welcome to the Forum TB. We like pic's as well as questions, have fun here. :D


Thanks, i dont feel like im being hunted with pitchforks and torches with this reply at least. just felt a bit like that if i questioned the actual effect of all these crazy expensive woods on tone i get berrated. it's like a "no go" areas it seems. and people are missunderstanding me, they think im saying that any guitar sounds the same as any other guitar providing it's got the same pickups. thats not what im saying
What i was trying to say was if you have 5 strats for instance, all american standards with the same specs, but different woods used. same pickups etc. i don't think there'd be a difference in sound, because judging by my own tests, the sound just seems to come from "a certain pickup, planted in a certain amount/weight of solid wood" gives an almost identical sound. I think maybe very different shapes etc give a different sound i suppose, but as the pickups arn't connecting to anything apart from a piece of plastic, im not seeing how the tone is effected by different quality woods, and the neck wood or fingerboard wood barely have any say in what the tone of the guitar is like as the pickup outputs the direct output of the initial string pluck directly above itself. it's not for the most part waiting for the vibration to go up to the nut and back down again. i just don't believe a birdseye maple neck or an ebony fretboard will change the sound of your guitar with the same pickups by even a 0.5 of a %


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:32 pm
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TB, little Bro, organic chemistry and molecular biology related to what piece of wood at what depth at what age of tree combined with fret board wood at what temperature and elevation and it's a guessing game until you get to the custom shop and then into a players hands and now I've forgotten what I was saying. Ok, different tone at this point for you might be a different amp or maybe not. :D

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Last edited by Solid Body Love Songs on Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:37 pm
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Try this - Take one fully loaded pickguard. Install it on 4 identical Strats, then lets hear you say they all sound identical. I have done this along with a lot of other players over the years. They will all sound different with the same pickups installed. They may sound similar, but the tone will be different from one Strat to another. I have had the same pickups sound bad in one guitar and really good in another.

Part of the Mystique of the Strat is that no two sound exactly the same. They each have a unique tonal personality, whether good or bad, but it is there. That is why guys will play every Strat on a wall in every guitar shop they can find for months or years to find that one that speaks to them.

If we were talking Gibson's LP model, I probably would agree that they all sound the same, played with distortion they do all sound the same to me.


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:11 pm
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tobougg wrote:
Thanks, i dont feel like im being hunted with pitchforks and torches with this reply at least. just felt a bit like that if i questioned the actual effect of all these crazy expensive woods on tone i get berrated. it's like a "no go" areas it seems. and people are missunderstanding me, they think im saying that any guitar sounds the same as any other guitar providing it's got the same pickups. thats not what im saying
What i was trying to say was if you have 5 strats for instance, all american standards with the same specs, but different woods used. same pickups etc. i don't think there'd be a difference in sound, because judging by my own tests, the sound just seems to come from "a certain pickup, planted in a certain amount/weight of solid wood" gives an almost identical sound. I think maybe very different shapes etc give a different sound i suppose, but as the pickups arn't connecting to anything apart from a piece of plastic, im not seeing how the tone is effected by different quality woods, and the neck wood or fingerboard wood barely have any say in what the tone of the guitar is like as the pickup outputs the direct output of the initial string pluck directly above itself. it's not for the most part waiting for the vibration to go up to the nut and back down again. i just don't believe a birdseye maple neck or an ebony fretboard will change the sound of your guitar with the same pickups by even a 0.5 of a %


In many instances those "crazy expensive woods" are merely aesthetic gingerbread, intended solely to enhance the beauty of an instrument. But more significantly, they foster the vibe that an owner feels for the guitar every time he (or she) strums a chord. Few of us play music because we *have* to......we do it mainly for the sheer enjoyment of the art and perhaps the sense of accomplishment when we light up a venue and dazzle an audience.

It's like driving to the supermarket -- you need milk, eggs, butter, a 12-pack of MGD, and a carton of Winstons. Sure, you'll get there and back driving a rusted out Datsun 510 sedan. But wouldn't you really prefer to run that errand in a rotisserie-restored Brittany Blue '69 Mach 1?

The prosecution rests.

:wink:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:21 pm
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SNick wrote:
Try this - Take one fully loaded pickguard. Install it on 4 identical Strats, then lets hear you say they all sound identical. I have done this along with a lot of other players over the years. They will all sound different with the same pickups installed. They may sound similar, but the tone will be different from one Strat to another. I have had the same pickups sound bad in one guitar and really good in another.

Part of the Mystique of the Strat is that no two sound exactly the same. They each have a unique tonal personality, whether good or bad, but it is there. That is why guys will play every Strat on a wall in every guitar shop they can find for months or years to find that one that speaks to them.

If we were talking Gibson's LP model, I probably would agree that they all sound the same, played with distortion they do all sound the same to me.


I just believe that if the pickup surrounds (bobbin?) were made of wood, and were glued directly to the body which in turn was bolted directly to the neck, then i'd say that maybe.
But saying that every single thing effects the tone when the pickups are just suspended in a plastic pickguard. and the bottomside of them don't even pick up the resonance you talk about because it's covered with a Plate.
I just think my analogy is correct. "It's like saying that every car stero has it's own unique tone because it's screwed into plastic dashboard". and in this case the "beautiful" tone would come from the car's metal shell, instead of the guitars wooden body. Why is it only really guitars that are considered to benefit so much from these magical tones etc. Can you explain to me how a pickup managed to take in all this lovely tone, and where does the tone come from, say from the Neck wood under the fretboard, how does the pickup get a sniff of that particular type of wood (and more specifically the grade of the wood).


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:01 pm
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Ask a violin maker these questions and you will be laughed at.

Personally I believe there is nothing resonant about a neck bolted to a body, that has multiple pieces of wood glued together and finished in a thick polyurethane or polyester finish. Along with plastic components, metal hardware and electronics.

I don't buy into a hypothesis that said glued together pieces of wood 'breathe' better when sealed with a few coats of sealer and caked in nitrocellulose. Considering all amounts of moisture are dried out, how can wood be 'alive' in order to 'breathe'?

When The first Strat was invented, there was no talk of resonance. It wasn't intended to 'resonate' If it was designed to, then the Strat would be constructed differently by master craftsman.

I think the argument and all notions of resonance in the way Fender electric guitars is purely accidental, because in all terms the Stratocaster was just meant to be a mass produced bolt-together electric guitars. Afterall, Leo Fender himself was not qualified to construct an instrument that resonates like a master violin, cello or a grand piano.

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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:21 pm
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Blertles wrote:
Ask a violin maker these questions and you will be laughed at.

Personally I believe there is nothing resonant about a neck bolted to a body, that has multiple pieces of wood glued together and finished in a thick polyurethane or polyester finish. Along with plastic components, metal hardware and electronics.

I don't buy into a hypothesis that said glued together pieces of wood 'breathe' better when sealed with a few coats of sealer and caked in nitrocellulose. Considering all amounts of moisture are dried out, how can wood be 'alive' in order to 'breathe'?

When The first Strat was invented, there was no talk of resonance. It wasn't intended to 'resonate' If it was designed to, then the Strat would be constructed differently by master craftsman.

I think the argument and all notions of resonance in the way Fender electric guitars is purely accidental, because in all terms the Stratocaster was just meant to be a mass produced bolt-together electric guitars. Afterall, Leo Fender himself was not qualified to construct an instrument that resonates like a master violin, cello or a grand piano.


exactly. an acoustic guitar is directly affected by the wood users and the size of the empty space within the guiar and the size of the hole.

but an electric guitar is a hadrbody. how the hell can pickups take the tone from even the same type of wood but with "higher" quality, when the pickups don't even remotely have any contact with the wood.
i just basically think people love their guitars so much. they want to believe they're magical and that the type of wood used effects the sound in a beautiful way. i wish it were the case. but i think it's just a way in the mind of making the instrument more than it is


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:58 pm
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tobougg wrote:
but an electric guitar is a hadrbody. how the hell can pickups take the tone from even the same type of wood but with "higher" quality, when the pickups don't even remotely have any contact with the wood.


Turn your amp up.
Knock on your guitar in various places.
Where is the sound coming from?
Why does it differ depending on where you knock?

According to your theory, there would be no sound, and it definitely would not sound different depending on where you knock, because there's no vibrations going from the wood into the pickups, right?
So perhaps it's aliens. Wearing copper bracelets.


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:03 pm
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yes you're correct arth, but thats different. the pickups are not picking that up, because they arn't connected to it. they're picking up the string vibrations. (in my opinion of course).
i mean come on, they're milking it SO much now that in some custom shop guitars they're even going back to using the old old old glue they used to use because apparently THAT even has an effect on the tone lol, they're milking it seriously! (respectfully again my opinion)
and back to my analogy. the car stereo doesn't sound different because they used a different type of paint on the body of the car for instance. similar in my eyes


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:06 pm
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case and point. the andertons video im watching linked here. they can't tell the difference UNAMPLIFIED between the 4 tele's. they can't tell the difference between the 2.4k stirling custom shop nocaster, and a squier classic vibe (an interesting note it's made out of pine). so it goes to prove in a solid body even the resonance its debatable unamplifed, as if it was acoustic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCEdT2d43jU


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:48 pm
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Something I've learned over my 20 plus years at bass guitar...some companies pick tone woods for a reason..and some just throw it together. Leo Fender himself said it's a crapshoot. The game is avoiding that gamble, right?


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:58 pm
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arth1 wrote:
tobougg wrote:
but an electric guitar is a hadrbody. how the hell can pickups take the tone from even the same type of wood but with "higher" quality, when the pickups don't even remotely have any contact with the wood.


Turn your amp up.
Knock on your guitar in various places.
Where is the sound coming from?
Why does it differ depending on where you knock?

According to your theory, there would be no sound, and it definitely would not sound different depending on where you knock, because there's no vibrations going from the wood into the pickups, right?
So perhaps it's aliens. Wearing copper bracelets.


That's not resonance, that merely cranking your amp up loud enough to hear your hand knocking it when your banging away on the surface. That's the mechanical energy of the impact of something being transferred from the body to the strings, then through the pickups as they are magnetic to the strings.

String resonance will have a completely different effect as knocking on guitars as it will be at a completely different frequency to the knock. At different frequencies different woods will respond to a sympathetic frequency from the strings that are completely unique to their own. Take the crystal glass theory and subject it to a certain frequency at a particular volume, and it will break. That's resonance- an object subjected to a particular frequency will vibrate and at other frequencies it won't move.

That's why I don't understand how on a Fender Customshop video, Mike Eldred can tell us how 'resonant' a guitar body is from the other just by knocking on it with a piece of woods and listening to the frequency of the knock. I mean, you knock a guitar body with a small block of wood, then knock it with a cricket bat and you will get two completely different frequencies.

And I'm not even talking string vibration and sympathetic resonance here. Using Strings will sound entirely different to the 'knock test' But put it on a video and sell that to the masses and everyone orders their masterbuilt guitars hand over fist.. :lol:

Add to that, we are talking about mass produced guitars made from lumber in huge numbers per day, in which fundamentally has the same construction techniques used to make a solid wood coffee table. Not a D'aquisto Arch top jazz or a Steinway grand piano, or a 350year old German violin crafted to attain a certain type of tone and resonance.

That's why if there was any 'good' resonance from a Stratocaster, it's purely accidental and highly improbable as no-one does any testing to this extent. Hence, there is no hypothesis on the topic. However, if anyone has the ability to test a guitar body to these frequencies before constructing them, then I'm going to eat my hat.

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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:51 am
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Q: What gives an electric guitar it's tone ? A: Pickups, Pots, Caps, Bridge, Strings, Picks Frets, Nut, Amplifier, The rest is in the players hands. Acoustic guitars factor in the wood so they are a different story


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:56 am
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Welcome to the Forum Kreature, interesting answer, thanks for posting.

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