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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:44 pm
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thanks for the replies. my argument then i suppose is. why do we pay for these guitars that cost thousands of dollars and are made from these "premium" woods etc, when if we do blind tests between a cheaper guitar and more expensive guitar, basically noone can tell the difference between them and in almost all cases they sound pretty much the same.

im almost certain that if i got a Squier classic vibe telecaster, and put a fender american tele neck on it, noone would be able to tell me that they arn't playing an american telecaster, im certain of it. if i handed anyone a 400 mexi stratocaster but id wrote made in USA on it. not 1 single person would know the difference i dont think. and probably all of them would be telling me how beautiful the american strats sound!

any of you agree with what im trying to get across here? is it all just about whats written on the headstock, making us think it sounds better


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:48 pm
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As said in a different post, you can't discard the human factor. It's a human playing the guitar, not a robot. If the human feels better or worse, whether it's from measurable differences or not, it will impact what comes out. A lot.

There's no need for yet another thread about this. You're beating a dead horse here.


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:58 pm
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arth1 wrote:
As said in a different post, you can't discard the human factor. It's a human playing the guitar, not a robot. If the human feels better or worse, whether it's from measurable differences or not, it will impact what comes out. A lot.

There's no need for yet another thread about this. You're beating a dead horse here.


im not really, im purchasing a new guitar soon. (and im going to be spending alot of money on it i'd say). and i want to know whether or not my investment is going to grow on my as my ear becomes more acustomed to the fine differences between more expensive guitars, and well made cheaper guitars.
as at the moment i don't see much poiunt spending 3k on a guitar when i can buy a mexi version of the same guitar and install the same pickups as the the more expensive guitar and have an identical piece.
or if you guys think that over time i'll start to notice the subtle (they must be reaaallly subtle) differences between the instruments based on their price.

thanks for the reply, and im not just trying to cause an argument, it's genuine consumer feedback im looking for here, as i've saved for a long time for this new guitar.


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:37 pm
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It's all in your hands and your ears. The rest is pretty much intangible and inarguable.

I've got lots of guitars (70) and I love them all. If I was worried about a particular tone, I'd have driven myself insane long ago.

That's what my therapist said to say, anyway.

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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:53 pm
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The fact that it's extremely bad $@!.

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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:17 pm
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Perhaps if you can't hear any difference between a Squier and a Custom Shop Strat then you should get a hearing test done at a board certified audiologist. I get one every two years. It is painless and very worthwhile to know for sure where you stand. I have some slight hearing loss in my right ear but the left ear is holding up OK.

There are many tonal components in an instrument. Some more important than others and many make a very subtle difference. To say any two Strats of any wood or origin sound identical so long as they have identical pickups, I would believe only when I heard it. There is no way a 5 piece MIM laminate body finished in poly will be as resonant as a nitro finished 63 Stratocaster with a 2 or even 3 piece body. A blindfold test might be a good idea here. With the same strings and a decent amp you should hear a difference.

Various things will impact tone like string selection. With dead strings it is hard to tell a Tele from a Strat. I know that on my basses the things that matter are strings, pickup, bridge, nut, wood used in neck and the quality of it, wood used in body and the quality of it, wood used on fingerboard and the quality of it, pot value, the accuracy of the setup, cap value and cap type pretty much in that order. Changing string selection or pickup makes the most difference but all the other things matter a tad. One of the most underrated components for tonal impact is the neck because it matters as much as the body yet people concentrate on body wood-body wood-body wood. If you've ever had a bass neck with a dead spot, say the C (fifth fret) on the G string, you quickly realize how important neck wood truly is.

I think everyone would agree Carol Kaye is pretty experienced and knows a few things about tone being both a hit making studio guitarist and number one session bassist of all time. I think she's pretty bright and has stated that only the strings and pickup matter on an electric solid body instrument. I've always known that wasn't actually 100% correct, but I believe she was awfully close to right when she said that. Maybe 97% correct. Everything else either adds or subtracts sustain or enhances or reduces resonance to somewhat minor degrees compared to the differences strings and pickups can make. The other subtle things mean that the fundamental tone will be longer or shorter. With that fundamental tone also comes more or less overtones or harmonics. Not all overtones or harmonics are good overtones or good harmonics. Some are good and pleasing, but some aren't. The overtones that come with new bass strings are usually bad news for me for example, so I put on muting material.

As has been clearly emphasized previously in this thread, but often overlooked elsewhere, is that the player can make more difference than anything else. People are different.

I'm a way better bassist than guitarist. I just play guitar for fun now and then and lately I'm playing way more ukulele for fun than guitar. Part of the reason I went with bass as my primary instrument is my fingers just work better on a bass. I get a better tone from my fretting fingers on a bass than on a guitar.

I seem to also do OK tone-wise with my fretting hand on the ukulele, but do less well with the strumming hand though. Most people play a ukulele strumming down and up with the only index finger using it like a pick. In fact that is the method most ukulele instructors push on every student. When I do that it sounds not as good as when other people do it. I sound better using my thumb and now I'm working on adapting to a new technique of using my thumb on the downstroke and index finger on the upstroke in a strum. It is a sort of tricky technique but I'm learning to do it better by the week. My point here, which took a while to develop so thanks for bearing with me, is that no two players are alike and no two instruments are exactly alike either.

You can do the same tone comparison with ukuleles. You can take vintage Martin or Kamaka solid wood soprano and compare it to a modern Martin or Kamaka soprano and with all else being equal you will hear and even feel differences. So why are they different? In truth someone with a really good ear can play several apparently identical instruments made in the same plant on the same day in the same color and pick one that clearly sounds better to them. Why is that? Variables in the wood and the pickup and other electronics have to be it because all other things are equal. If you can't hear any differences, please go and see a doctor.


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:11 pm
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The unecessary amounts of gain I have. And the big muff.

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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar its tone?
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:27 am
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My hands. I started out playing an acoustic with an action like a cheese grater and graduated to a plywood POS electric played through a hifi for years before I got a proper electric guitar and an amp.

If you know how to make bad instruments sound good then when you finally get hold of a decent instrument you can make it sound a hell of a lot better than someone who has only ever played top-quality gear.

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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:02 am
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Doesn't the whole tone thing have something to do with the harmonic series? I really don't know..and to this day can't describe bass guitar tone, or how it's done. To me...there's dub tone(reggae), Motown tone, burp tone, and grind tone. I go for the burp thing. Oh yeah..there's also that awful tone you get with any amp when you use p.a. cables instead of patch cords. I've got the best sound right now that I've ever had. A band would be nice...

I remember another real nice tone I had one day when a guy let me play his Gibson EB3 through my old Kustom 200 with cab. I never knew mud could sound so good.


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:50 am
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Quote:
What gives your guitar it's tone?


The tone control does it for me. :D

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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:34 am
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I fall on the side of the arguement that tone comes primarily from the player. I do believe the guitar itself, body wood (but not so much the fretboard), pickups (in the case of an electric), even shape are important. But the tone is really driven by the skill and style of the player.

I'm in the market for a new acoustic and I'm trying many different models from different manufacturers. I (with a fairly uneducated ear) can clearly tell the difference in tone between a Martin all-mahogany and a Taylor spruce-top. But they each sound different and better in the hands of my "guitar guy" at the music store.


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:53 am
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tobougg wrote:
im not really, im purchasing a new guitar soon. (and im going to be spending alot of money on it i'd say). and i want to know whether or not my investment is going to grow on my as my ear becomes more acustomed to the fine differences between more expensive guitars, and well made cheaper guitars.
as at the moment i don't see much poiunt spending 3k on a guitar when i can buy a mexi version of the same guitar and install the same pickups as the the more expensive guitar and have an identical piece.


Much of the business of selling guitars is in the marketing.

Leaving aside the crap cheap guitar vs premium product argument that some are making, many find the differences between the CV Squiers and Am Std products, negligible or subjective. That doesn't mean their hearing is impaired, it means they hear and appreciate sound differently, as do those you prefer a higher end product, although ears tend to be seduced by high price tags. As they also can with lesser ones, depending on your budget.

There are very good cheaper guitars out there. I've recently bought a Sigma copy of a Martin 000 Mahogany (Martin used to own Sigma, so these are Martin-deisgned guitars), and having played both side by side, the Martin has a nice voice to it, but they're both nice guitars, and the difference is so small the Martin isn't worth 5X the price to me. Both sounded fantastic played by the store pro muso.


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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:34 am
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I think you're (again) beating a dead horse.

There are many, many highly subjective tonal nuances in individual guitars. My MIM Telecaster, with a maple neck, weirdly sandwiched body woods, a vintage-style Tele bridge (but yet has six saddles), four-way switching, a Fender No-Load Tone potentiometer and a P90 neck pickup coupled with a flat-pole Tele/Broadcaster-style bridge pickup sounds quite a bit different from another friend's (electronically) similarly appointed 1999 American Standard Telecaster (the only difference is the neck pup; in our comparison, we were referencing only the bridge pup). His body was made of alder (I don't know how many pieces) and he has a slightly different 6-saddle bridge.
Which sounded better? Well, surprisingly, we both preferred my MIM. It was richer, fuller and "bigger" sounding.
What was the difference? Was it wood, construction technique, finish type, or perhaps a combination? Maybe mine was built on a Wednesday and his on a Friday?

Who knows and who cares? Mine sounds and plays great, so I'm fortunate to have it.

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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:35 am
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I've played very expensive and "valuable" axes that were tonal dogs and some "cheap and worthless" axes that sounded divine.

If you sincerely believe that higher-end instruments (features, electronics, woods, etc.) aren't any better that cheaper/budget instruments, that's fine. You'll be able to find anecdotal evidence that supports your belief (including my story above).

But to say that there aren't higher-end instruments that have an extra amount of playability, beauty or tonal quality is ignoring facts obvious to everyone else in the room.

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Post subject: Re: What gives your guitar it's tone?
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:38 am
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To answer your original question, I think my tone comes mostly from my hands. I generally sound like me no matter which guitar I'm playing...

That's not to say that there aren't differences in sound between my Telecaster or Strat or G&L F100 or G&L Nighthawk or Dean Chrome G or Epiphone Special P90 II or...

Each if them have their own sonic qualities, their own playability and their own "feel". That "feel" makes me play a little differently on each of them...but ultimately, I sound like myself.

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