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Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:25 am
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Aw, I don't know.......seems like you're not bringing the human factor into the mix, which is actually where it should start. When I first started playing, tuning by ear took about 2 minutes...now....it never sounds totally in tune. As you progress in familiarity, knowledge, etc., more nuances of what you hear begin to emerge. I haven't seen anyone comment on the actual "feel" from guitar to guitar, which is another important aspect of playing an instrument, as the approach to that feel will be different for each player.
While you can scientifically deconstruct every aspect of guitar or any other instrument, since every person hears and experiences sound in their own unique ways,along with the other senses that kick in, basic science doesn't really apply.
Perhaps I'm prone to placebo, but every guitar I've played sounds and plays just a little bit different.......some extremely so. Spice of life!
Cheers,
rob

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Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:46 am
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Her Wanna wrote:
Even the Gibson "tone" can be done on a single coil strat with very small EQ adjustments (more bass and mids; use neck pickup). For example the Sweet Child solo. Need a "thicker" tone? Make a very slight nudge on the bass dial on the EQ and use the neck pickup.


But it isn't a machine playing, it's a human. Whose playing will be affected by how he or she relates to the instrument, even to the point of intangible things like "like" and "feel". If a Gibson feels different, the result will be different.

Having a guitar I actually like playing on makes me a better player. Why I like it does not have to be quantifiable.


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Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:23 am
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Rob Schwarz-Fender wrote:
I haven't seen anyone comment on the actual "feel" from guitar to guitar, which is another important aspect of playing an instrument, as the approach to that feel will be different for each player.rob

You can extrapolate my comments to this observation by you in that the early days in Leo's factory there was quite a bit of hand finishing, hence no two guitars were exactly the same nor could they have 'felt' the same. The same holds true today, particularly with the necks. Don't know how well the 'quota rumors' about the production line hold up but if the finishing times are held to a minimun, for sure there are going to be differences.

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Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:44 am
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Hiya Doc,
Don't for sure know what you mean by "quota rumours" but I can probably extrapolate that they may not be positive.....
I will say that I don't know of any time that there haven't been quotas on production operations. Some are more, some are less of course, and I've personally known some in my CBS years as unrealistic (band-sawing 150 contours an hour). The problems,when there ARE problems come from the unrealistic quotas which leads into non-adherence to specifications to meet that quota. As a Tuner-Tester at CBS my quota was 50 guitars a day in the throes of CBS world, which was not easily done considering the quality of the product when it reached the Final Guitar line. When Schultz and his team came in, that quota became 30 a day, which after a few months was no problem to reach as the quality of the operations beforehand got better as well. In other words, easier and quicker to complete a great product then to polish a piece of crap.
To your point though, there are still alot of operations that are done by hand, which any person who has taken the Factory Tour can attest to. There will still be differences as you pointed out, but the trick is that the differences aren't so far out as to produce a poor quality.
And that was alot more words than I intended!!!
Cheers,
rob

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Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:02 pm
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Better now than the early Fender or CBS eras for sure. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:24 pm
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An electric guitar won't sound COMPLETELY different due to the difference of one single, solitarycomponent or build "aspect"--i.e., finish, fretboard material, body material, etc.

However, the combination of a dozen little tweaks, differences and customizations can add up to a very different instrument altogether.

So a person (such as GilgaFrank) may hear a marked difference because he switched necks (a radical change, not due to fretboard material per se, but due to the construction/quality differences in he necks), but may not hear a marked difference between the types of caps and pots used on different guitars (a minor tweak).

However, totally replacing all the pots, caps and switches on the electronics could add up to a noticeable change in tone.

Two Teles with the same body wood, neck type/wood, fretboards, electronics and pickups might not sound significantly different, but the differences will add up if all those things are the different.

...plus the "feel" factor comes into play; if it "fits" the player better (due to neck size and construction, body weight/shape, etc.), the instrument will immediately "sound" better, because the instrument is more comfortable to play, thus inspiring the player to new heights in his/her art. (I'm somewhat echoing Arjay's point here).

All of this ignores the fact that playing technique will change the sound of any guitar as significantly as pickup swaps, upgrades in materials and components, etc.

I respectfully disagree with the OP. His experience may have been an honest assessment of what he heard, but disregards too many personal "quirks," "piccadillos," and protocols of the individual player.

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Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:15 pm
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Thanks for the replies and opinions guys!

All great points.
I have a couple of i suppose "bringing it back down to earth" things to say regarding these guitars and you can tell me what you think.

- Like my german guy pretending he knew what he was talking about. Avoiding buying a new strat because he wanted the tone only a vintage guitar could give, and was tricked into thinking he had what he was looking for in his hands, most people just "imagine" they're hearing differences in their guitars, like the first guy said, a placebo effect.
The truth is really, no matter how much you paid for your strat and what year you got it in, it wasn't designed by a guy spending 8 years making it and cardving a piece of wood out of an ancient tree that he's been performing resonance and tone tests on for years before picking it, they were made by using mass produced materials all given to the company by the lowest bidder.
* so that magical 1971 strat you have that looks kinda old that you think was sent down by god and sounds like NO other guitar. is just a mass produced guitar which in the same year was sold along with about 10 thousand other ones just like it.

- also, ponsey people give you the "yeah i replaced by bridge with an old fender block, not the new skinny ones as they sound different, and i didn't want to lose that tone"..And looking around the internet you see nothing but people saying that "the bridge, the neck, the fretboard, the strings, the nut, the blocks, the pickups, the position of the pickups, the height of the pickups" etc ALL offer this amazing thing to the tone of this imaginary 1 of a kind guitar. If thats the case, how come the plastic bits, like the scratchplate which is directly under the strings, the plastic at the back, the cheap screws, hell, even the little crappy metal things you put your strap on don't affect this amazing tone?
I mean the cheap plastic scratchplate is right under the strings, and the cheap plastic that the pickups are made out of are too, and the nuts for your strap are screwed directly into the body. How come the machine heads arn't considered to effect the tone etc?
It looks like anything that they can charge you money for, affects the tone. anything cheap, doesn't.

- And as for saying that these "vintage" guitars and current flagshit models are all still handbuilt. pfft. a les paul has a few processes that are hand done. like sanding and things like that. But most of the guitar is machine tool'd. same in fender. Literally 80% of it is machine built.

- here's my thoughts. if all the old processes and all the old material's used in older guitars are just PLAIN better. and give SO much better tone making them worth 10's of thousands. why is it only in guitars that this is the case?
How come people arn't on ebay looking for the original version of the ipod? it uses older materials than the new ones. and it should make your songs sound better no? exactly, no, because the processes and the materials were less advanced. Same for guitars.
- If we treat everything like we treat guitars. then NO 2 ipods should sound the same right? they all have different tone, so some people have amazing tone from their mass production ipods because they're older than the new ones. i mean it's the same isn't it? they all have microscopic differences, some use different metals. and they ALL are cut from different pieces of metal, so they all sound different then?

i wish people would get out the "older = better" mind set. because apparently it only applies to expensive equipment. Like older guitars are expensive. Yet most tv's are garbage. Even though they were all hand made etc.

Just sayin :P
Peace!


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Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:27 pm
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it sounds like you have answers you're already very happy with.
Even if I had the money.....I wouldn't buy a Stradivarius. That doesn't mean it isn't truly a master crafted product that produces magical tones and plays like the heavens are opening up......it just means that I can't hear or feel it, or perceive the things that people who truly are tuned in to the nuances can.
I can't hear the harmonics that Eric Johnson is purported to hear. But then he's a ridiculously better player than I am too....so who really knows? Only Eric I imagine.

If you're happy with your perceptions and they transform themselves into reasons not to buy into the vintage scene, bless ya and enjoy what ya DO like.
Doesn't make everyone else wrong though.....(already posted why)
Cheers,
rob

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Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:45 pm
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Lightnin MN wrote:
Retroverbial wrote:
Jonoteague wrote:
My genuine opinion: My belief makes all the difference. Is there really much of a difference? Probably not. Do I care about that? Not in the slightest. Somehow that makes me happier than I care to think about.


Nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all.

8)

Arjay


Sorry Arjay,

I luv ya man... but I have to disagree.

The modern world wasn't built on belief, it was built on critical thinking.

That things were observed in a way that they could be repeated, reproduced. This includes all forms of Music.

If we were still basing our lives on belief systems, we'd be sacrificing Lambs to become better guitar players instead of practicing things until we could accurately repeat them.

If Jonoteague wants to delude himself that his guitar's Tone stands above all others, that doesn't make it so, except in his own mind.

And even were he to be correct, in no way would that make him a better player. (not dissing your playing... just sayin')

The never-ending quest for the Best Tone by many gets thrown out the window when a truly gifted player picks up anything even resembling a guitar and makes sweet music with it.

Guitars are just a tool... It's NOT the Wand... It's the Magician which makes the difference.

I have a stable of truly wonderful guitars, but unless I learn to master them, it won't matter how good of a Tone they produce.

cheers!


Sorry Lightnin, I may have appeared too biased towards belief, (and trust me, teaching science among other subjects, I don't normally appear that way), and dismissed critical thinking too much. I guess I made the mistake of assuming that for the purposes of this argument, because the objective evidence was so close, belief would be a more important factor.

I don't think my tone stands that high, but after much investment, I consider that I don't have to hang my head in complete embarassment. I can't really play in any capacity other than for personal enjoyment, I certainly wouldn't form a band. I know you weren't dissing my playing - but I have to concur heartily with you there.

Because I am not a gifted player, and I don't have the time to practice nearly as much as I would like, I console myself by striving for something that doesn't sound horrible. As Rob hinted at, it's harder to polish a - lets just say a turkey. I am not a wizard, but with increasing mastery, and decent equipment, at least I'm not a jester :wink: Plus, when a wizard does come calling, we can both enjoy the magic!

I guess I was trying to say that even though a beginner's pack does not actually sound light years away from my gear (in the right hands especially), I believe that the small differences are worth it, at least in my mind.

Much Love to Arjay, Cheers to Lightnin MN, and respect to Rob!

P.S., If I thought that sacrificing a lamb (or meeting deities at intersections) would improve my guitar playing, maybe I'd try it! But we know better.


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Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:03 pm
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Jonoteague wrote:
P.S., If I thought that sacrificing a lamb (or meeting deities at intersections) would improve my guitar playing, maybe I'd try it! But we know better.


Mebbe you could just stuff a Justin Beiber CD into a Cuisinart and recite a few Hail Mary's......?

:wink:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:08 pm
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Quote:

Mebbe you could just stuff a Justin Beiber CD into a Cuisinart and recite a few Hail Mary's......?

:wink:

Arjay


HAHA. Well, if anyone of this generation has been "down to the crossroads", Bieber seems to be the one most likely in league with Lucifer!


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Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:34 am
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People believe what they want to believe and unfortunately guitarists are totally in love with repeating what they hear or read from a source that they respect/trust. It's the player, not the instrument for the most part that makes a guitar sound great.

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Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:32 am
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEAjPaxpVOw

This guy has some pretty solid videos that show things back to back - i tend to agree with him that if there's any difference in sound, it's all about the parts the strings are touching. especially after watching this video. but, in my own experience, like i've said before- when i was buying a guitar a couple of years ago - and had the money to get anything I wanted (within reason) - i sat in that shop and played at least 20 different models - usa strats, usa teles, japanese strats, mexican strats, jaguars, squiers, mustangs, everything.... and got it narrowed down to the mexican made CAR 60s reissue strat, and a new USA strat. they both sounded almost identical, but the MIM was a little warmer (to my ear at least) and it FELT better in my hands. The neck was a lot more hand-friendly. smoother. it just felt right. so I spent 508 $ out the door and left the USA strat on the wall. another factor when playing guitars at a shop is you don't know which ones have been re-stringed with some cheap brand because they've been hanging there way too long. Surely they're not putting Elixirs on everything. hmmmm..... and I've also bought a few guitars that sounded amazing through the FENDER amp at the store, but then when I plugged in to my '78 Peavey they didn't sound good at all. Which of course means I'm way overdue for a new amp, but that's a whole different discussion. cheers.

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Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:18 am
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lameandcliche wrote:
got it narrowed down to the mexican made CAR 60s reissue strat, and a new USA strat. they both sounded almost identical, but the MIM was a little warmer (to my ear at least) and it FELT better in my hands. The neck was a lot more hand-friendly. smoother. it just felt right.


The MX models tend to have a slick poly finish like the body, which is nice for those who glide their hand. The higher end models tend to have satin necks, which gives a better grip for those who brace with the thumb, classic style.
For V neck models, it makes little sense to have a satin finish, in my opinion.

Anyhow, it's one of the things where I wish Fender would give the user a choice.
Same with jumbo frets vs classic.
You don't even get a choice in the parts store for a new neck.


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Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:38 pm
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by the way. im thinking of picking up a new guitar soon, giving that im struggling to find a difference between the various versions of guitars (strats in particular) what would you recommend. i have about 2200 i think to spare. I currently have a 2003 Standard strat, and a 1997 mexi strat. both have alder body, maple neck with rosewood boards. and the ceramic magnets so they sound almost identical.


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