It is currently Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:08 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:30 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 26417
Location: Tombstone Territory
Lightnin MN wrote:
This is not better/worse, just different. Some people prefer the 'brightness' of a Maple neck while others prefer the less bright (dare I say 'Duller' - oft referred to as 'richer', deeper', 'fuller' ?) Rosewood.


I believe "warmer" is a more accurate descriptive.

And nowhere in this discussion is the "other" half of the electric-guitar equation mentioned, namely the amplifier.

Any decent instrument will sound great with quality amp. Conversely, a $5000 Strat from the Custom Shop will usually sound like crap when plugged into some miserable fizzbox. The "placebo effect" notwithstanding, an amp either "has it" or it doesn't. And that reality will quickly make or break the tone from any guitar.

JMOOC

Arjay

_________________
"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:34 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:13 pm
Posts: 19026
Location: Illinois, USA
tobougg wrote:
Hey there, im becoming very skeptical here when it comes to picking a guitar. I used to work in a huge guitar shop in london, and i've had the pleasure of playing and testing alot of vintage and new gitars together, and tried to tell the difference


my question is, do you guys think that the name on the headstock and the date it was made creates imaginary sounds in people's minds to enable them to come up with sentences like "you can just hear the amazing quality that only a strat from that era has, that high end twang, the new ones don't have that sound"



any opinions on this? i'd really appreciate your feedback. thank you

Basically, different models sound different to eachother. guitars of the same model with different bodys and pickups (and or) sound a bit different from eachother. Guitars of the same model of different years with the same hardware (even vintage) all sound the same, of course providing it's the same pickups and same build process. and the neck of a guitar doesn't change the tone a jot


tobougg,. "gitar" s sound different. Headstocks and dates are different on different guitars. You can use your imagination I would encourage that, everything in moderation, good vibrations, as it were.

_________________
you can save the world with your guitar one love song at a time it's just better, more fun, easier with a fender solid body electric guitar or electric bass guitar.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:18 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 23, 2011 12:34 am
Posts: 73
The power of belief means a lot to me. I don't want playing a guitar to become an 'objective' experience, so I encourage myself to indulge in a crazy "quest for tone". It's not cheap, and it's not for much usually, I grant you that. Maybe in the end a 1-2% difference, if put to the most stringent scientific testing I guess.

But, boy do I love thinking I've got some of the finest sounding and playing instruments that time, money and effort can achieve. Picking up one of my guitars and plugging it in - heck, just looking at them - can give me a huge grin.

My genuine opinion: My belief makes all the difference. Is there really much of a difference? Probably not. Do I care about that? Not in the slightest. Somehow that makes me happier than I care to think about.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:39 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 26417
Location: Tombstone Territory
Jonoteague wrote:
My genuine opinion: My belief makes all the difference. Is there really much of a difference? Probably not. Do I care about that? Not in the slightest. Somehow that makes me happier than I care to think about.


Nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all.

8)

Arjay

_________________
"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:08 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:14 pm
Posts: 2561
Retroverbial wrote:
Jonoteague wrote:
My genuine opinion: My belief makes all the difference. Is there really much of a difference? Probably not. Do I care about that? Not in the slightest. Somehow that makes me happier than I care to think about.


Nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all.

8)

Arjay


Sorry Arjay,

I luv ya man... but I have to disagree.

The modern world wasn't built on belief, it was built on critical thinking.

That things were observed in a way that they could be repeated, reproduced. This includes all forms of Music.

If we were still basing our lives on belief systems, we'd be sacrificing Lambs to become better guitar players instead of practicing things until we could accurately repeat them.

If Jonoteague wants to delude himself that his guitar's Tone stands above all others, that doesn't make it so, except in his own mind.

And even were he to be correct, in no way would that make him a better player. (not dissing your playing... just sayin')

The never-ending quest for the Best Tone by many gets thrown out the window when a truly gifted player picks up anything even resembling a guitar and makes sweet music with it.

Guitars are just a tool... It's NOT the Wand... It's the Magician which makes the difference.

I have a stable of truly wonderful guitars, but unless I learn to master them, it won't matter how good of a Tone they produce.

cheers!

_________________
Image

'11 FSR Am. Vtg. Ltd. Ed. CAR '57 Stratocaster (SN# LE02639)
'14 American Deluxe Ash Stratocaster
'12 Telebration Empress Telecaster
'99 Deluxe Nashville Telecaster
'12 FSR Telecaster HH
'10 Heritage H-535
'99 Martin DC-1E
'13 Lanikai Tenor Ukulele


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:02 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:32 pm
Posts: 2459
Location: Through The Gates Of Mordor..
tobougg wrote:
Hey there, im becoming very skeptical here when it comes to picking a guitar. I used to work in a huge guitar shop in london, and i've had the pleasure of playing and testing alot of vintage and new gitars together, and tried to tell the difference

- we had 13 different les paul's all standard les pauls (standard written on the trus covers). mostly different years ranging from 79 to 2011 at the time. I sat for hours, plugging 3 guitars in at a time, and just strumming them gently 1 at a time 1 after the other and listening to the tone and resonance.
10 of the guitars were identical. literally identical. 2 of the others were slightly bassier but sound the same as eachother. and the newest guitar was a thinner sound than all of them. there was 10's of thousands of pounds worth of guitars there and they literally all sounded identical for the most part.

- now of course i have a decent enough ear for a guitar. you can easily tell the difference between gibson's and fenders etc. you can always identify a strat, tele, les paul, explorer etc. but im convinced now there's almost (if any at all) NO difference between the same models with the same pickups and materials.

- i played 7 fender strats. 3 of them were identical. 1994 never sold so basically new fender strats. 2 of them had maple necks, 1 had rosewood, identical hardware, even the colours were all sunburst.
Now i spent 25 mins strummung loud, soft on all 3, and there wasn't even the tinest.. i repeat not even the TINEST bit of difference between all 3. so totally trashing for me the idea of "ooh the rosewood gives a much warmer tone). to me now it makes no differece.

- i then tried a couple of other strats. a brand new 2011 standard USA strat, with alder body and maple neck like the 1994s. and again almost identical sound to the other 3. you wouldn't be able to tell the difference honestly.

- lastly i tried a couple of other strats with different pickups. a strat pro and a strat with noise cancelling pickups. (2 actually from different years). Now they all sounded a bit different to the standard strats, but again, sounded identical to eachother provided they had the same pickups. The wood in the body/neck made 0 difference that i could tell.

my question is, do you guys think that the name on the headstock and the date it was made creates imaginary sounds in people's minds to enable them to come up with sentences like "you can just hear the amazing quality that only a strat from that era has, that high end twang, the new ones don't have that sound"

i must admit i did something a bit wanky, this german knowit all guy came into the shop one day looking for a classic strat (he had plenty of cash). and he said i don't want a new strat as "the older pre 85 strats just had a warmer more precise quality to the sound, completely unique). OK?
so i tested him, i took out my own strat which was a 2003 usa standard that i'd played very rarely, and bought from new, didn't play it because i was playing my tele when gigging and to be honet i just thought the strat was just meh.. not a thick enough sound.

Anyway. i gave him my 2003 strat, hardly used, never fully tested live. and he was picking away at it, doing the old blues things, moving his head closer to the strings to let them ring out, and he said "you see? can you hear that, it's just incredible.. you don't get a quality mesmorizing sound like that on newer guitars, you can tell these were made back then by the true masters who understood what guitars were about, not the new generation guys).

now i know it's cruel, i told him it was a 2003 and he said "well you must have gigged it like hell to get that classic sound from it, the pickups obviously have been run through the mill for a long time". told him again that i've never gigged it, and only spent a pit of time picking at it unamplified at home writing songs.

any opinions on this? i'd really appreciate your feedback. thank you

Basically, different models sound different to eachother. guitars of the same model with different bodys and pickups (and or) sound a bit different from eachother. Guitars of the same model of different years with the same hardware (even vintage) all sound the same, of course providing it's the same pickups and same build process. and the neck of a guitar doesn't change the tone a jot


I have to agree.

Like, ash was used instead of alder on transparent and sunburst finishes because it was visually speaking, more appealing. Acoustic Tone, was the last thing Fender was thinking of back in the day.
Much like rosewood vs maple- Rosewood was used because it did not wear like maple.. Not for tone.

And pickup magnets translate string vibration only- not acoustic 'tone'.

Lots of hype and debate on the subject. Like your German customer, nobody is that much of an expert to know the difference. Only they think they do and Even if they think they do- this type of customer is more likely to shell $$$ (or in your case, £££) on a customshop guitar to nail that tone that will be easily mistaken for a standard Strat with fat 50's pickups.

Let's remember- Leo Fender had little idea how to nail that 'special tone'. All he had in mind was a mass produced electric guitar. So any mojo hype really- is purely accidental here. He didn't even know how to play the guitar :mrgreen:

I can say that I've got maple, rosewood and ebony to compare with.. Rosewood does sound warmer, maple tone is similar as ebony. But still, what you hear acoustically and what you hear plugged-in are two completely different things- and that's my conclusion.


To throw into the mix, Stradivarius violins were famed to have a particular tone. Having worked with a violin maker in the past, I believe it. Then again, violin-making skill is on a completely higher level to guitar making and the choice of woods have a more profound effect on the overall tone of the instrument. Fender Guitars, even customshop guitars are made from planks of lumbar with CnC routers.. Not by skilled luthiers who know tone like violin makers do. Yeah customshop do make nice instruments, but any guitar maker can make something to a same quality for much less.

Your hands and fingers have majority effect on tone here.. Second is the Amplifier and anything in between your guitar and amp. But It's all in the hands!! :D Although you can spend thousands on a rig.. If you don't have the skills, then you can make that $$$$$ rig sound like $@!&. I learnt when I was young on a Strat copy that cost $75 and graduated up as I got better- these days I've seen people drop big money on a single Les Paul Standard or Deluxe Strat guitar thinking it will make them sound good, thinking it was their own holy grail for tone- yet at the same time bought their first 'Guitar for Beginners' book. :roll:

_________________
Image


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:05 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:10 pm
Posts: 13467
Location: Palm Beach County FL
-Have a look at the Custom Shop website and check out the videos on the selection rationale of woods for matching necks and bodies. I doubt they use that formula building alder body guitars on the production line. Production line guitars are usually 3 pieced; Custom Shops are usually 2 and you could probably get a body cut from a single piece of wood as well.
-my guitar tech, with 30+ years as a builder, tech and journeyman musician believes that quartersawn necks, reversed headstocks, flat pole pieces and a bridge pickup on a Strat flipped the opposite way is what Leo should have been shooting for. That's his formula for tone, and the way he build his own number #1 go to Strat. There's no accounting for tastes, dude. At the end of the day, the holy grail has to be in your ear, your hands, and what pleases your eye.

You'll want to find and check out some of the videos of our own 'texasguitarslinger'. One of the guitars she plays is a partscaster we helped her build. There's nothing special about her other gear either, but her soul still comes forth.

_________________
"Another day in paradise!"


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:15 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:50 pm
Posts: 4602
Location: ˚ɷ˚
Blertles wrote:
And pickup magnets translate string vibration only- not acoustic 'tone'.


Unless you have a marble slab guitar, this is wrong for two reasons:
- How the strings vibrate depend not only on the length and how they're plucked, but the bridge, and what it transmits to the strings. Put a rubber grommet under a saddle, and the tone changes, because it loses the vibrations transmitted from the guitar through the bridge into the string.
- It's not just the string that vibrates, but the pickup too.

Semi-hollowbodies sound different to solids, even when listened to without a mike. Why? Because the resonance of the body does indeed affect what the pickups produce.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:26 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:37 am
Posts: 4099
Location: New York
I do believe there is a very small difference in sound depending on the woods used, etc with a solid-body guitar. But (IMO) it is such a small difference and most of the sound of the instrument comes from the amplifier used and the pickups.

Whatever small difference the wood makes has to be just barely heard by the player (if at all), and completely missed by the audience.

_________________
Please subscribe to my Image Channel!
https://www.youtube.com/user/b7567


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:36 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:10 pm
Posts: 13467
Location: Palm Beach County FL
arth1 wrote:
Blertles wrote:
And pickup magnets translate string vibration only- not acoustic 'tone'.


Unless you have a marble slab guitar, this is wrong for two reasons:
- How the strings vibrate depend not only on the length and how they're plucked, but the bridge, and what it transmits to the strings. Put a rubber grommet under a saddle, and the tone changes, because it loses the vibrations transmitted from the guitar through the bridge into the string.
- It's not just the string that vibrates, but the pickup too.

Semi-hollowbodies sound different to solids, even when listened to without a mike. Why? Because the resonance of the body does indeed affect what the pickups produce.


When my guitar tech built his Strat, in addition to using a quartersawn neck with a reversed headstock , neck through body, hardtail construction ending at the front of the fixed bridge,, non-staggered pole pieces, and a reversed bridge pickup, he also mounted the pickups directly to the neck wood.[G.E.Smith Tele; Van Halen Wolfgang] Your conclusion is that the sum total of all those influences would be the final current generated by the inductance effect of the string vibrating in the magnet field in that structure.

An interesting study would be to determine what differences, if any, could be detected in the nature of the vibration and the current generated by a single string on different types of guitars. :idea: I submit that, from an experimental design point of view, establish strict control criteria would be most difficult, but it would certainly answer a host of interesting questions. :wink:

_________________
"Another day in paradise!"


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:44 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 26417
Location: Tombstone Territory
Lightnin MN wrote:
Retroverbial wrote:
Jonoteague wrote:
My genuine opinion: My belief makes all the difference. Is there really much of a difference? Probably not. Do I care about that? Not in the slightest. Somehow that makes me happier than I care to think about.


Nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all.

8)

Arjay


Sorry Arjay,

I luv ya man... but I have to disagree.

The modern world wasn't built on belief, it was built on critical thinking.

That things were observed in a way that they could be repeated, reproduced. This includes all forms of Music.

If we were still basing our lives on belief systems, we'd be sacrificing Lambs to become better guitar players instead of practicing things until we could accurately repeat them.

If Jonoteague wants to delude himself that his guitar's Tone stands above all others, that doesn't make it so, except in his own mind.

And even were he to be correct, in no way would that make him a better player. (not dissing your playing... just sayin')

The never-ending quest for the Best Tone by many gets thrown out the window when a truly gifted player picks up anything even resembling a guitar and makes sweet music with it.

Guitars are just a tool... It's NOT the Wand... It's the Magician which makes the difference.

I have a stable of truly wonderful guitars, but unless I learn to master them, it won't matter how good of a Tone they produce.

cheers!


We're not discussing "building a world", we're talking about the most esoteric of concepts -- namely art.

And an artist's perception of himself/herself and how comfortable he/she is with that is a significant part of the creative process.

I have my own personal protocols for engaging in this endeavor (some would term them "quirks" or "peccadillos") when it comes to my choice of gear. Do those choices make me a better guitarist than the mediocre musician I probably am? Who knows. But if I'm not happy when I'm playing then whatever music I'm playing will usually sound just as disappointing.

Arjay

_________________
"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:03 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:10 pm
Posts: 5057
Location: The Capital Wasteland
tobougg wrote:
my question is, do you guys think that the name on the headstock and the date it was made creates imaginary sounds in people's minds to enable them to come up with sentences like "you can just hear the amazing quality that only a strat from that era has, that high end twang, the new ones don't have that sound"


Yes, I'd pick my Guild over any Fender or Gibson if given a choice.

Why, you ask? Because it sounds noticeably better and plays noticeably better than anything else I've played/owned.

_________________
1984 Squier Contemporary Stratocaster
1986 Peavey Envoy 110
1967 Kingston Acoustic


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:44 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:10 pm
Posts: 13467
Location: Palm Beach County FL
tobougg wrote:
my question is, do you guys think that the name on the headstock and the date it was made creates imaginary sounds in people's minds to enable them to come up with sentences like "you can just hear the amazing quality that only a strat from that era has, that high end twang, the new ones don't have that sound"

Yes and no. I'm 71. I come from them days and owned one..a '58, which I played professional for 10 years. And yes, I think they sounded different to my ear. But 'amazing quality only a Strat from that era has?" I don't think so. Are you familiar with that classic derrogation.."Turn them upside down and they are are all the same :?: :oops: :oops: " Not so :!:

You want to hear unadorned Stratocaster, minus sophisticated EQ'ing and signal processing, listen to Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens, Robin Luke, Mickey Baker, to name a few. Find videos by Buddy Merrill. I wouldn't suggest Beach Boys because I would suspect you're getting out of the Fifties. Even Clapton's '56 Brownie doesn't go there on "Layla". I can't even suggest very early Buddy Guy for the same reason. It's been signal processed out of its era.

We know that materials and methods were less sophisticated and standardized back then and consistency from guitar to guitar was not as uniform as it is with today's manufacturing methods. Some guitars were great, some were mediocre. Besides, nobody, but nobody seems to want to play guitar these days unless it comes out sounding like Billy Gibbons. I offer you the product demo videos as an example. So what difference, REALLY, does all that presupposed amazing quality matter in today's music scene when the so called 'clean' tone of the guitar is no longer exploited :?: :wink:

Two years ago I sat in the showroom of a well known vintage guitar dealer in California with a '57 black Strat in my hands carrying a price tag of $45K. All I can say is that it would be a good buy for anyone who considers that kind of money chump change just to be able to say they own it. If it's sweet music to the ear of the buyer, all the better, driving off with it into the sunset in the passenger seat of a Lamborghini. :wink:

_________________
"Another day in paradise!"


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:46 am
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 739
Even the Gibson "tone" can be done on a single coil strat with very small EQ adjustments (more bass and mids; use neck pickup). For example the Sweet Child solo. Need a "thicker" tone? Make a very slight nudge on the bass dial on the EQ and use the neck pickup.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Your genuine opinions appreciated
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:57 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:10 pm
Posts: 13467
Location: Palm Beach County FL
Her Wanna wrote:
Even the Gibson "tone" can be done on a single coil strat with very small EQ adjustments (more bass and mids; use neck pickup). For example the Sweet Child solo. Need a "thicker" tone? Make a very slight nudge on the bass dial on the EQ and use the neck pickup.

.....and that's without having to sit in the control room with your guitar patched in through the board for your solos because the volume setting on the amps in the studio is on "20", permanently damaging to the human ear, and there are '40,000' microphones placed strategically around the room to catch every nuance. :lol: [You read enough in guitar publications to learn how these tones are achieved.] There comes a time when we have to start getting real about what's possible in one's bedroom or basement :wink:

_________________
"Another day in paradise!"


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: