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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:44 pm
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captainc wrote:
A lot depends upon the capacitors used.

:lol:

But seriously, if it sounds good it is good. I have a Mustang II. My Hot Rod Deville got stolen. I hope the perps turned it on and the tubes caught fire and they died a thousand deaths. Or they dropped it on themselves going up the stairs in their Queens apt. The Mustang II was what was in my budget for the time being. I get tired of tweaking and am settling on a couple models and leaving them plain with a dirt box or two for the front end. I agree with everyone’s point. 1Neeto has a great point about learning what you like. I’m digging the Princeton and Deluxe reverb (Both 65) are they exact? I don’t give a crap, they sound good to me and when I pay down the house in a few years and get the OK from the mrs. To get my new strat and new amp I’ll be definitely looking at those two immediately. I love the Mustang for now though, have issues with it here and there but it suits me fine for now.


Hey Cap I feel your pain and then some. I had an amazing 1966 Vibrolux Reverb stolen. I also agree that if it sound good it is good... to you. It doesn't matter what I think. Find a post where I said you're any less a musician because of what you play. There's nothing after the fact. The solid state guys thinks the tube guys are just wasting their money on old technology. I build both tube and small solid state amps for my cigar box guitars. One is even a tiny 5 watt hybrid with a tiny preamp tube. I don't have the patience to tweak stuff all the time. It shouldn't be so hard to find a decent sound. My 5e3 is plug and play.

Here it is. I built both of these sweetass specimens and photographed them too. I took the original Jenson 8" speaker out of my 74 Champ and put a Sweet 8" Weber Signature in it. I'm not one to waste stuff, so I put it to good use. It's not a bad sounding amp. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:11 pm
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I gotta get me a cigar box


Last edited by tbazzone on Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:12 pm
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I remember you posted that in another thread supro, beautiful builds. I bet they sound like poetry. Beautiful photography as well. I agree, everyone has their taste and everything has its place. I work in tech support for film and television so the last thing I feel like doing is putzing with a computer so not sure why I didn't consider that with the mustang. Love the amp especially when the DSP chips are glowing hot but happy to ditch fuse altogether now that I've adjusted the Sag and Bias to my liking. LOL

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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:20 pm
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tbazzone wrote:
I gotta get me a cigar box


If I can build one anyone can :lol:
Here's a great like to a supplier.
www.cbgitty.com
They have parts, instructions the works. They have some pretty cool stuff too.

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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:50 pm
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my first amp back in the 60's was a brownface Princeton. used it until 1968 when I started playing gigs in bigger places.

next amp- a solid state Baldwin amp. anyone remember the "supersound buttons"?. mine was a 2x12 combo that served me well for many years. I played thru a peavey bandit and a few other s.s. amps over the years, and they got the job done. not a big fan of the modeling ones though.

today I have a bdri, as well as a blues junior. very happy with them both. but there are a lot of good solid state amps out there too. whatever floats your boat :lol:


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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:31 am
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1neeto wrote:
arth1 wrote:
1neeto wrote:
Can't really compare today's SS amps from those from yesteryear. The beauty of SS amps is that they're inexpensive. If I spend $300 on a SS amp and 10 years later it has no factory support and takes a crap? I'd consider that money well spent.

True, but some value consistency too. If having to replace an amp with a new and different amp, you have to learn the new amp, and may never get the exact same tone as your favorite setting. Some might not care, and move on, while others will want what they're used to and like, and are willing to pay an up front price for that.

It's the same thing with guitars - you can get them with built-in digital effects and midi cables now, yet the great majority of players prefer simple and dependable over features and planned obsolescence. The Japanese monster guitars with quad pickups and more buttons than a synth never caught on.

Yes, quality has a price. And some are willing to pay for that. I respect that choice.

Also another benefit of SS modeling amps is that it helps beginner/intermediate players find their tone. Eventually the player will realize that he/she has been sticking to a certain amp model and effects and later on they will make the decision to buy the real deal.

Let's see who pass this test. I failed miserably.


This one is interesting too.


Wow on the first vid amp 3 (Rath Retro 20) was by far the thickest and nicest sounding IMO.

Also what both vids show me is that the Fender Mustang 4 has taken it to a new level and sounds much better than any amp used in any of these videos, both clean, high gain, and everything in between.

lol


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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:57 am
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strings10927 wrote:

Was it a Fender Mustang amp you tried? Did you try adjusting the sag and bias settings yourself?


This has been my question. The people who say the SS amps are not even close, are you talking about a Line 6 that you played in 1987 or a G-dec from 2005? Have you played a Fender Mustang 4? Supposedly the new Mustang line took modeling to a whole new level of awesomeness as far as sounding like a "real" tube amp. I'm a beginner player. I really want to know--and I've said this before--what some of you pros might think if you sat in my living room and played my Mustang 4 (and were free to turn it up, pretending I have no neighbors). I'm not being snotty; I'd like to know what John Mayer or Eric Clapton would think of my amp's tone if they sat there and messed around with it. Sure it's not up to the standard of what they put on a stage, but would they think "wow this is decent" tone? I'm not good enough to judge it. I do feel like a lot of you tube guys are admitting that the last time you tried a modeling amp was a Line 6 in 1987, so you (rightly so) were turned off by that and haven't touched a SS amp since. Or even a Fender G-dec does not count, folks. G-dec was discontinued and replaced by Mustang. Some guys who have played both and gig regularly say the Mustang was a game changer and they sold their Deluxe and pedals. I also own a Line 6 Spider IV (my first amp), so I am qualified to say... yeah...it sounds "metallic" and "harsh" compared to the Fender Mustang, even the clean tone. No comparison. I have played them side by side. What I have not played side by side is a mustang and a DRRI.


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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:10 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
Generally speaking, the larger driver will afford a broader, more robustly detailed frequency response (when such a comparsion is performed using similar cabinet configurations).

Arjay

Game, set, match. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:28 pm
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ZZDoc wrote:
Retroverbial wrote:
Generally speaking, the larger driver will afford a broader, more robustly detailed frequency response (when such a comparsion is performed using similar cabinet configurations).

Game, set, match. :wink:


Given that the amp has enough power to move the elements in a controlled manner. I've seen/heard enough examples of too large speaker elements for the amp that were supposed to drive them.
Unless you want the special effect of cardboard flapping, the amp stage needs to match the elements. At least.

Sure, you can play softer, but you need to have a minimum volume to overcome the built-in resistance of the elements, which is much higher for guitar speakers than, say, studio monitors. So that leaves you with very little leeway up and down.


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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:51 pm
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arth1 wrote:
Given that the amp has enough power to move the elements in a controlled manner. I've seen/heard enough examples of too large speaker elements for the amp that were supposed to drive them.
Unless you want the special effect of cardboard flapping, the amp stage needs to match the elements. At least.

Sure, you can play softer, but you need to have a minimum volume to overcome the built-in resistance of the elements, which is much higher for guitar speakers than, say, studio monitors. So that leaves you with very little leeway up and down.


BS!

I've played a 6-watt Vibrochamp through a 2 x 15 Dual Showman cab and a Princeton Reverb through a pair of twelves. Both sound positively ballsy. You haven't got a clue as to what you're talking about.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:51 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
BS!I've played a 6-watt Vibrochamp through a 2 x 15 Dual Showman cab and a Princeton Reverb through a pair of twelves. Both sound positively ballsy. You haven't got a clue as to what you're talking about.


Clipping is ballsy? Eh, okay. You're entitled to that opinion.


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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:03 pm
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I offer observations based on over 45 years of experience, formal training in electronics, and FCC certification and you bring exactly what to the table?

Let me know when you take the training wheels off of your soldering pencil, pal.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:40 am
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Holy bejeebus, what a great thread. Sorry, but while you all think there is arguing going on, I call it really talking and communicating.

I can only go by my own experiences here. But I want to start off by saying that I love both SS and tube amps. We are all artists, and our mediums are sound. Just as there are fine examples of oil paintings, there are equally fine examples of watercolor. Much different mediums, but it's the artist and his talents and his comforts that create such fine works of art.

The late great Frank Zappa would kill this thread with a 10-speed wheel and a tuba, but I'm gonna throw my few cents in anyway.

Years ago, I had a Mesa dual rectifier. The older 2-channels were one of the greatest amps ever in my opinion. Most would say I'm crazy for saying that. But I could make that amp sound any freaking way I wanted it to. Think I couldn't make it sound like a Fender? Think again. I became such a master at tube swapping on that thing it bordered Frankenstein status. But to this day, I've never found a SS or modeling amp match the saturation properties of a real Mesa Dual Rectifier.

Lets say for example, a modeling amp has a "rectifier" setting. Ok fine. Is that a rectifier sound with modern tubes installed? Give me a modeling sound with an RCA nos in V-1, Mullard in V-2, GE in V-3, CV4024 in the reverb and GE long plate in the PI, Sed 6L6, RCA rects. Now lets hear it with a Mullard, Valvo, sylvania,6201, Sylvania,GE setting..etc, and so on.

My point is that with modelers, you're going to get interpretations based on what you're given, and that's it. Sure, you can tweak settings. You can eq till you're blue in the face, but never have I ever heard a modeling amp capture the true nature of a real Mesa DR.

However, I don't fight the power. I don't expect it going in. I know already it isn't gonna happen. SS amps have their place in the music industry. I use them a lot. I mainly play live with a Roland JC-50, 1x12 and analogue pedals. For big shows, a Fender HRDV. No offense to Fender, but it's a known thing that those amps don't travel well. SS amps are simply better workhorses.

I can work equally as well in the clean channel with SS or tube amps. But man, when it comes to a good rich, thick, distorted Mesa or Soldano or Rivera, I personally haven't found a modeling or SS or Hybrid amp yet that can match the real thing. Not in my experiences anyway.

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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:27 am
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Jah Soldier wrote:
But man, when it comes to a good rich, thick, distorted Mesa or Soldano or Rivera, I personally haven't found a modeling or SS or Hybrid amp yet that can match the real thing. Not in my experiences anyway.

I thought my old Line 6 AxSys/AX2 handled that real well. And you could EQ the thing to death to create your own sounds. Weighed such a ton and had no room for it, that I left in NYC when I moved to Florida. Left it with a friend who's still gigging, had one, got rid of it, and wanted another. Can't blame him.

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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:29 am
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tbazzone wrote:
I gotta get me a cigar box

....from Cuba.....and full. :idea:

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