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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:10 am
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Aspiring Musician
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By the way, I don't think anyone has attempted to answer the original question: 1X12 vs. 2X12.

Say it's apples to apples--forget the solid-state/modeling amp debate. Talking tube amps only. Take a DRRI vs. a TRRI. Do you prefer the sound of the Twin over that of the Deluxe if they are being played at the same volume and EQ settings? Does having 2X12 give a slight natural chorus or slightly fuller sound, or does the Twin just have the capability of getting louder?

Of course, the Twin gets super ridiculous loud and can max out louder than the Deluxe maxes out, but the Deluxe can get super loud in its own right, so there can be overlap at a quite high volume were tubes are getting to the sweet spot, right? At the same volume, DRRI is just as good as TRRI? No difference that would be perceived by an audience?

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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:14 am
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The SS folks are just fine with tube amps as far as I can tell. We just choose to go a different route and end up defending our decision when the 'tube people' start taking trash about our equipment.

Instead, maybe we should just smile quietly to ourselves and say 'what else would we expect from the dinosaurs?' :mrgreen:

Her Wanna wrote:
In short, is there any kind of feeling of "once you go 2X12 you'll never go back to 1X12"


not in my case :wink:

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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:18 pm
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Not always. If you have a great speaker in a nice cab, a 1x12 will fit the bill nicely. I have a Weber 12125A Alnico in my 5e3 Tweed Deluxe Clone and actually prefer it to two 1x12 a 2x12 and a 4x12. A good cabinet will have a resonance all its own. Weber makes a nice speaker and I seriously prefer them over most Eminence and Jenson speakers. They work for me, YMMV

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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:47 pm
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if there's any 'slight natural chorus' it would surely be lost as soon as you are not dead center in front of the speakers. It doesn't make sense to me that there would be chorus though, because neither speaker would have any delay. You'd get the same exact thing coming out of both speakers at the same time.

The main difference (if I understand correctly) would be a +3db increase in volume.

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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:59 pm
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It's not tube people exactly. What bugs a lot of tube guys is when the people who use modeling amps state the for example the "Tweed" or "Blackface" setting sounds exactly like the real deal. That's seriously not true at least in my experience. I've played and owned many of real deals. The dynamics and organic tone are seriously missing. There is a difference in tone and it's undeniable for sure. There are a few solid state amps I like. It's not snobbery, it's preference. I've played through Cyber Twin amps, and I liked them for what they were, but they were too complicated for me to use on the fly. I'm a low tech guy.

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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:04 pm
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a lot of the 'digital modeling amp people' have lots of experience with tube amps, and some of them even have both right next to each other to compare.

You have to know what you're doing with modeling amps. I can give the same paint brush to a professional artist and a 6 year old child. The results will be significantly different. It's like that. These amps aren't really aimed at the 'low tech guys'.

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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:22 pm
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No, but they are two different electronic devices. They are completely different. It's analog and digital. The problem I find with most digital devices are digital artifacts in the sound. These weird little nuances. I also find them sterile sounding. It's hard to replicate the sag of a rectifier tube. I'm not saying it's all bad sounding, but it's different. It's not even close. I've played them side by side and the amp just responds differently. It's because of the way the tube responds to voltage. You can push a tube to saturation, but a solid state device just gets brittle and harsh sounding when pushed hard. Modeling amps just get weird little tones and clanging stuff when pushed hard. A tube amp has a touch sensitivity and dynamic that a modeling amp doesn't have. If for example you play e 5e3 Tweed, when you hit the strings hard, the sound gets distorted but not louder, lighten up on your attack, and the sound cleans up without getting softer. It's called dynamics. All the modeling devices I've tried just can't accurately duplicate it. It's a feel that's missing for me.

I would never think anyone less a player because of the gear they use, Gibson, Fender, Danelectro, solid state, or tube.

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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:35 pm
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63supro wrote:
I would never think anyone less a player because of the gear they use, Gibson, Fender, Danelectro, solid state, or tube.


Hah, so you're dissing me because of my Orange hybrid! ;-)


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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:38 pm
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63supro wrote:
The problem I find with most digital devices are digital artifacts in the sound. These weird little nuances. I also find them sterile sounding. You can push a tube to saturation, but a solid state device just gets brittle and harsh sounding when pushed hard. Modeling amps just get weird little tones and clanging stuff when pushed hard. A tube amp has a touch sensitivity and dynamic that a modeling amp doesn't have. If for example you play e 5e3 Tweed, when you hit the strings hard, the sound gets distorted but not louder, lighten up on your attack, and the sound cleans up without getting softer. It's called dynamics. All the modeling devices I've tried just can't accurately duplicate it. It's a feel that's missing for me.

I would never think anyone less a player because of the gear they use, Gibson, Fender, Danelectro, solid state, or tube.


Gee, me thinketh the last statement accurately portray's 63supro's intentions, after the fact, doh! :roll:


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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:41 pm
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63supro wrote:
It's hard to replicate the sag of a rectifier tube. I'm not saying it's all bad sounding, but it's different. It's not even close.


Was it a Fender Mustang amp you tried? Did you try adjusting the sag and bias settings yourself?

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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:47 pm
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arth1 wrote:
1neeto wrote:
Can't really compare today's SS amps from those from yesteryear. The beauty of SS amps is that they're inexpensive. If I spend $300 on a SS amp and 10 years later it has no factory support and takes a crap? I'd consider that money well spent.

True, but some value consistency too. If having to replace an amp with a new and different amp, you have to learn the new amp, and may never get the exact same tone as your favorite setting. Some might not care, and move on, while others will want what they're used to and like, and are willing to pay an up front price for that.

It's the same thing with guitars - you can get them with built-in digital effects and midi cables now, yet the great majority of players prefer simple and dependable over features and planned obsolescence. The Japanese monster guitars with quad pickups and more buttons than a synth never caught on.

Yes, quality has a price. And some are willing to pay for that. I respect that choice.

Also another benefit of SS modeling amps is that it helps beginner/intermediate players find their tone. Eventually the player will realize that he/she has been sticking to a certain amp model and effects and later on they will make the decision to buy the real deal.

Let's see who pass this test. I failed miserably.


This one is interesting too.

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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:21 pm
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A lot depends upon the capacitors used.

:lol:

But seriously, if it sounds good it is good. I have a Mustang II. My Hot Rod Deville got stolen. I hope the perps turned it on and the tubes caught fire and they died a thousand deaths. Or they dropped it on themselves going up the stairs in their Queens apt. The Mustang II was what was in my budget for the time being. I get tired of tweaking and am settling on a couple models and leaving them plain with a dirt box or two for the front end. I agree with everyone’s point. 1Neeto has a great point about learning what you like. I’m digging the Princeton and Deluxe reverb (Both 65) are they exact? I don’t give a crap, they sound good to me and when I pay down the house in a few years and get the OK from the mrs. To get my new strat and new amp I’ll be definitely looking at those two immediately. I love the Mustang for now though, have issues with it here and there but it suits me fine for now.

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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:22 pm
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captainc wrote:
A lot depends upon the capacitors used.


WHEEEEEEEE!

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:mrgreen:

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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:36 pm
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Round and round she goes where she stops nobody knows. There's really nothing to argue about you like what you like


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Post subject: Re: 2X12 vs. 1X12
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:42 pm
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I heart boobies. I think we can all agree with this. :mrgreen:

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