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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:28 am
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GilgaFrank wrote:
mhowell wrote:
Your physics is correct.


Why do I sense there's a BUT coming?

mhowell wrote:
However, blah blah blah blah I paid for expensive caps and I desperately want to believe they make me sound better/


Truth is, if someone sneaked in one night and replaced everyone's military spec PIO caps with cheap ceramics then no one would notice. Absolutely no one.


Strawman alert.

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:47 am
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This thread has historical significance for me. It marks a notable first. I'm even tempted to call it epic. I'd save the page in my bookmarks for posterity except it's not the good kind of notable first. I doubt I'll want to visit a second time or be reminded of this first.

This is the first time I've ever experienced the urge to press the magic happy button without even being involved in the discussion.

Wow.

(long slow whistle)

Talk about a sudden loss of all credibility....

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:03 am
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orvilleowner wrote:
GilgaFrank wrote:
Her Wanna wrote:
....I have a hard time figuring out what to do next.


Sell it and buy a tube amp.


Naaah, keep it as a practice amp while you save up your money to buy a monster tube amp.


Which monster tube amp should I get?


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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:15 am
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mhowell wrote:
GilgaFrank wrote:
No. Different VALUE capacitors roll off treble at different rates. Or rather different values of RC.

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I don't see any factor in that equation to adjust for the composition of the resistor or the cap. Maybe someone should come up with different laws of physics that apply only to guitars.

Your physics is correct and this will surely benefit you on your PE exam. However, mathematics is ideal but most capacitors or not. Most caps have varying internal resistance and this is usually not stable or measurable except under steady state conditions. Playing guitar is far from a steady state condition. As a matter of fact the transients can be torturous at times.

So although your equations are correct it is often difficult to impossible to know what value to apply to the variables. There still may be a great deal of truth to your assertion but there's enough gray area in the real world physical implementations that you might consider toning down on the absolutes.

Cheers,

True that. The op sounds as though he's wanting to prove how clever he is by posting technical details. If that gets you off, then go for it.

I'm reading a preamp book just now about designing and could come on reciting all the equations i've learnt and what they do. Talk about obscure things like CMRR as it applies to the PI and all such technical things. But what's the point?

A lot of people like carbon comps in certain positions in their amps and they swear the difference is there. Why use an equation to say they're wrong?

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:23 am
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Gorgon wrote:
Why use an equation to say they're wrong?

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:49 pm
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GilgaFrank wrote:
mhowell wrote:
Your physics is correct.


Why do I sense there's a BUT coming?

mhowell wrote:
However, blah blah blah blah I paid for expensive caps and I desperately want to believe they make me sound better/


Truth is, if someone sneaked in one night and replaced everyone's military spec PIO caps with cheap ceramics then no one would notice. Absolutely no one.



Your completely wrong Frank.
You do have some good info from time to time, but you get to full of yourself.
You can hear the difference in Ceramic, Foil, and Oil,
You can record it and see it in spectrum analysis.
You can hear it in overdriven sounds Its no different than being able to hear magnets.
Alnico 2 sounds different than Alnico 3 or 5 and Ceramic sounds different again.
Same with Ceramic caps they sound like crap. Matter of fact the new little blue junk Gibson uses in the Les Pauls is horrible.

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These are Junk
Slash uses orange drop exclusively why not ceramic?
Why bother making different caps at all?
Because they have different tolerances and different ratings.
Value is a small part of the equation, but what a gear head can understand.
Now part of what you said is true.
If you buy a Lux and a Black Cat PIO both with same value and ratings they will sound the same reguardless of cost I feel.
But a Orange Drop WILL NOT sound anything like a PIO.

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Last edited by donnycraven on Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:55 pm
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GilgaFrank wrote:
There is no difference in sound between a $50 paper in oil capacitor and a 1c ceramic disk capacitor of the same value.

Anyone who claims to be able to hear the difference is deluded.

That is all.

Debate it if you like. Try to justify wasting your money. Until people started selling "boutique" caps a few years back no one in the world cared what kind of cap was in their guitar. And guess what, people still made nice sounds on guitars.

The fact remains that a microfarad is a microfarad whether it's an expensive waste of money, a cheap disk or two square feet of platinum separated by the finest silk dipped in goat's blood. And if your precious "tone" relies on the choice of capacitor in your instrument then you are doing something seriously wrong. And someone else is laughing all the way to the bank.


I almost thought you knew a little something but I am sure you don't now or are misguided.
Good Luck in your attempts to convince people in the future.

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:52 pm
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donnycraven wrote:
I almost thought you knew a little something but I am sure you don't now or are misguided.
Good Luck in your attempts to convince people in the future.


+1

It must be oh-so-lonely living alone in that ivory tower......

:mrgreen:

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:42 pm
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This would be an even cooler thread GigaFrank.
if you hadn't yeaterday came into my thread on this very subject in the Stratocaster Lounge.

So does Jeff Beck use a Orange Drop or PIO Capacitors?

http://forums.fender.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=89214&start=30

You made a rude comment and ran out here with your inspiration and started a new thread.
Kind of makes you an unoriginal hack of low caliber there bud.
You see I found two vendors selling Jeff Beck Harnesses basically just wired American Standard and one had an Orange Drop and one had a Black Cat PIO.
Each claimed to be Jeffs personal harness.
I suggested he would probably use the Orange Drop, well wait let me just go get it... :)

GilgaFrank wrote:
donnycraven wrote:
I tend to believe that he is running orange drops because they are associated with fast lead playing.


This is the single most idiotic post I have ever seen on the internet.



Now mind you the three of us were discussing it quite politely then in walks this turd.

I then replied

donnycraven wrote:
GilgaFrank wrote:
donnycraven wrote:
I tend to believe that he is running orange drops because they are associated with fast lead playing.


This is the single most idiotic post I have ever seen on the internet.


Here is the product description


Sprague 225P ORANGE DROP Capacitors


Great cap for most applications
Well suited for faster styles where a fast pick dynamic is desirable
Great for Blues too!


I know SLASH favors them for this reason and uses them exclusively.
Do you know something he doesn't?

I also know that PIO has a smoother tone because of its tolerance and ability to hold more.

Are you on the side of the fence that value is the only difference, capacitor type has no impact?
I have spoke with many who are on both sides so I just conducted the experiment myself.
There is an audible difference between Ceramic, Foil, and Paper In Oil Capacitors.


I got no reply and being the hack he is he ran out here and posted this.
I commend you Frank you are admirable.

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:00 pm
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I'm happy to say that I don't really have that problem. In all of my years of playing, I have yet to back off a tone knob for any reason. Never liked the sound of a backed off tone to this day. I'd much rather keep them at 10 and provide myself with the pickups I feel are necessary for whatever I'm doing.

To me a tone knob would only be useful for bridge pickups anyway. I've never had the desire to back off what little treble a neck pickup already displays, or even a middle pickup for that matter. If I feel like one if my bridge pickups is too trebly, I'll back off the treble on my amp.

After coming to my own conclusion, about a year or so ago, that a tone knob serves no function whatsoever for my taste, I've since started yanking them out, disconnecting them altogether and leaving dummies, or using no-load pots and leaving them on 10.

Everything on 10 still leaves me with 3-6 tones per guitar (I'm adding 1 for my wah toe up). I can get through any show with 3-tones just fine. Any more than 6 is just fidgety and only caters to an OCD that I don't have in me.

When I did wire them up in my guitars, I used orange drops. Whether it was a placebo that i liked the sound of them, or just my fondness for its orangey appearance, doesn't really affect me anymore. I just simply don't use them. I didn't use them even when they were in my guitars. They were just... There.

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:13 pm
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Jah Soldier wrote:
Everything on 10 still leaves me with 3-6 tones per guitar (I'm adding 1 for my wah toe up). I can get through any show with 3-tones just fine. Any more than 6 is just fidgety and only caters to an OCD that I don't have in me.


I'm sure you know that you can get a lot more tones than that (without using the tone controls) by changing where you are picking/strumming. Close to the bridge is brighter, while closer to the nut is darker.

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:23 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Talk about a sudden loss of all credibility....

I think the smackdown has been delivered, I almost had to look away

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:29 pm
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Jah Soldier wrote:
...Never liked the sound of a backed off tone to this day. I'd much rather keep them at 10 and provide myself with the pickups I feel are necessary for whatever I'm doing....or using no-load pots and leaving them on 10.


This is a good illustration of the differences in taste, as I usually turn the no-load tone pot just past the click to put the pot back in the circuit (9.9 :lol: ), as 10 was just a touch too much treble for me when using the bridge pup. I respect your preference and don't feel like calling you delusional for hearing that slight difference. :wink:

Jah Soldier wrote:
...I used orange drops. Whether it was a placebo that i liked the sound of them, or just my fondness for its orangey appearance...


Maybe you should leave them hanging out from underneath the pick guard so you can see them and keep the placebo affect going strong, lest you forget. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:37 pm
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orvilleowner wrote:
Jah Soldier wrote:
Everything on 10 still leaves me with 3-6 tones per guitar (I'm adding 1 for my wah toe up). I can get through any show with 3-tones just fine. Any more than 6 is just fidgety and only caters to an OCD that I don't have in me.


I'm sure you know that you can get a lot more tones than that (without using the tone controls) by changing where you are picking/strumming. Close to the bridge is brighter, while closer to the nut is darker.


Yea, I'm aware of that. As well as finger strumming and picking.

One point that stuck out to me was the mention that an audience wouldn't know the difference between a poly or pio cap. Well, the same could be said for the actual technique if using a tone knob at all. Does the audience know you just backed off your treble? Do they know what kind of pickups you use? 90% of them don't even know what kind of guitar you're using unless they read the headstock, nor do they even care. They'll know the color, and that's about it.

We (the guitar players) are the only ones who care about these things and much of it is in vain. If you can play, you can play. If you can't, practice more.

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:40 pm
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Jah Soldier wrote:
We (the guitar players) are the only ones who care about these things and much of it is in vain. If you can play, you can play. If you can't, practice more.


Vanity distinguishes us from the lower-order primates.

:lol:

Arjay

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