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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:09 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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I gotta say, I love the OP--the original post, not the poster. It's hilarious. I like your style.

I play all my guitars stock and, using a solid state Mustang 4 v1 amp, get perfect tone every time. lzozlozlzozlzoz

In fact the mustang is so much fun it's bad for my OCD. So many tones and effects to play with....I have a hard time figuring out what to do next.


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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:19 pm
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Her Wanna wrote:
....I have a hard time figuring out what to do next.


Sell it and buy a tube amp.

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:57 pm
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GilgaFrank wrote:
With capacitors there's far less to worry about. I've never even heard of anyone worrying about the inductance of a cap, I would assume it's an insignificant quantity compared to the capacitance. The only real variable between two equal capacitors is their resistance/impedance.


So what about capacitors and their resistance/impedance?

When I shop for a capacitor, about the only other characteristic I see listed is voltage. The electrical environment inside a guitar isn't very stressful. Are there any compositional differences in terms of the "nonlinearity" of a capacitor (the ability to maintain the specified capacitance as voltage/current/what-have-you changes within the circuit)?

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:58 pm
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GilgaFrank wrote:
Her Wanna wrote:
....I have a hard time figuring out what to do next.


Sell it and buy a tube amp.


Naaah, keep it as a practice amp while you save up your money to buy a monster tube amp.

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:11 pm
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orvilleowner wrote:
When I shop for a capacitor, about the only other characteristic I see listed is voltage.


And a lot of people use PIO caps rated at 630 Volts. Which is probably higher than the rating of the blocking caps inside your tube amp. But hey, they're paper in oil. Must be better. Certainly more expensive.

orvilleowner wrote:
The electrical environment inside a guitar isn't very stressful.


True, a couple of millivolts isn't really going to trouble a 630 Volt cap.

orvilleowner wrote:
Are there any compositional differences in terms of the "nonlinearity" of a capacitor (the ability to maintain the specified capacitance as voltage/current/what-have-you changes within the circuit)?


Ah. Now that, that is a good question.

A friend of mine worked for a UK defence contractor in the 1950s and they had to build a test rig for capacitors because they found that the capacitance varied very slightly with the applied AC frequency. In other words a cap that was 0.01 uF at 1kHz could have been 0.011uF at a different frequency. Another cap from the same batch could have been 0.009 uF at the same frequency. This was important for radar-guided missiles at the time. I suspect it's several orders of magnitude less important for tone controls though.

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:26 pm
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wow....light the fuse and stand back. ok, i went through some caps i have on hand the other day, just because i was bored. i soldered some aligator clips to the tone pot in my favorite strat and tried out PIO, ceramic,O.D. 225p, and some greenies and some asorted other film types. i was looking for one that had the best taper,best tone responce when i rolled it to near mud(with the volume on the guitar at different levels.i was running it through my homemade rangemaster into my ac30c2. i used all .1uf caps because i wanted as close to the original strats as i could get (my strat is wired normal,neck and middle with tones bridge no tone)i use 57/62 pups in it. when i had the guitar dimed and the amp really overdriving you could get that "heal down wah" sound or "woman tone" with the tones turned to 2-3, at 1 it was almost mud but still vocal. when i backed the volume down to different levels the amp cleans up and you can hear some nice smooth o.d. to clean tones and the taper of each type of cap can be heard. so basicly i found the sound i wanted surprise it was an older .1uf ceramic cap(likely it's a R.S. from the early 2000's). the only cap that was the unusual one of the bunch was the orange drop 225p, it had a muffled midrangey sound when i turned the tone to 1 and had it cranked. but it was cool and fun. wasted time...maybe.


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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:30 pm
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shinkicker wrote:
wasted time...maybe.


I don't think so.

You've accumulated some empirical data which may prove useful down the road.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:44 pm
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shinkicker - that's an interesting experiment considering the relative costs of ceramic vs PIO caps.

eBay has ceramic 0.1 uF caps at £1.28 for a pack of 10, probably just over a cent each.

Also, I'd be interested to see that experiment repeated as a blind test. Confirmation bias is a b1tch.

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:52 pm
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about a year ago i came across a page where they tested all kinds of caps of equal values and like it or not the final conclusion was the same as the original posters conclusion. for the actual sound there was no difference. i wish i still had the web address for this article. ill try to find it and if i do ill post it here.


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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:57 pm
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shinkicker wrote:
i used all .1uf caps because i wanted as close to the original strats as i could get


SK, that was the nominal value, were you able to measure the actual capacitance?

Hey Frank or anyone else, have you ever seen a guitar control circuit that uses a second order tone control? Or how about a tone control that only uses an inductor (an LR circuit)?

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:08 pm
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http://www.netarhia.com/capacitor-test- ... rcuit.html


http://www.skguitar.com/SKGS/sk/CapTest/CapTest.htm


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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:13 pm
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amx05462 wrote:
http://www.netarhia.com/capacitor-test-polyester-film-vs-paper-in-oil-pio-in-guitar-tone-circuit.html


http://www.skguitar.com/SKGS/sk/CapTest/CapTest.htm


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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:24 pm
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What was the purpose of this thread?

If it was to prove that you're smarter than everybody else...well, ok! You're smarter...and...? :roll:

If it was to inform and/or warn people that they may be getting had, and if you're truly concerned about people's financial health, that's cool and nice of you...but it still smacks of, "Lord, thank you for making me smarter than everyone else!" :roll:

...why would you try to take some indefinable pleasure and fun away from somebody who thinks the "better/boutique" caps really make a difference (of which decision the jury will ultimately be deadlocked)?

Yes, there are people who are a bit nutty about specific things that will be unheard by even the more discerning ear (I have to put my fellow Texicano Eric Johnson in that category...), however...

I will rarely make a (very few) "absolute" statements about electronics, mojo and people's attraction to specific components, accessories, amplifiers or instruments, because (generally) the moment I do, that person will be able to criticize the quirks and crutches (gear-wise) I have developed over the years, such as:

My unnatural attachment to a particular slide or
The way I blocked my tremolo with a stack of quarters or
The effect pedal that only gets turned on once a gig but I refuse to part with or
The "fact" that putting the ashtray bridge cover on my Strat seems to increase sustain...

But wait! That last one was true, and there's some science behind it, based on how the ashtray is pushing the saddles together tighter, to make them one complete, solid unit (kinda like how G&L has that set screw that pushes the saddles together on some of their hardtail bridges)...even if nobody else can hear it but me... :P

You can see how such a statement could be mocked or supported in equal measure...(even though I'm right about the ashtray increasing sustain :lol: ).

Ultimately, if we examined your rig(s), we would be able to criticize, mock, cajole or ignore some of the things you find "necessary and good" as hogwash...

You may or may not be right about the capacitors (I wouldn't dare argue electronics with you), but I could talk about those indefinable "mojo" things we all have and it would be just as silly as your original post (considering the arrogant spirit in which it seems to be posted).

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:26 pm
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orvilleowner wrote:
Hey Frank or anyone else, have you ever seen a guitar control circuit that uses a second order tone control? Or how about a tone control that only uses an inductor (an LR circuit)?


How about an LCR variable band-pass filter?

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I did fit a Bill Lawrence Q Filter into a a Strat many years ago. It was ok I suppose. Didn't make me play any better though.

Bill Lawrence designed the Varitone circuit for Gibson, that works by switching various indutors in and out of the tone circuit. I don't think it was ever going to set the world on fire.

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:30 pm
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Screamin' Armadillo wrote:
What was the purpose of this thread?

If it was to prove that you're smarter than everybody else...well, ok! You're smarter...and...? :roll:

If it was to inform and/or warn people that they may be getting had, and if you're truly concerned about people's financial health, that's cool and nice of you...but it still smacks of, "Lord, thank you for making me smarter than everyone else!" :roll:

...why would you try to take some indefinable pleasure and fun away from somebody who thinks the "better/boutique" caps really make a difference (of which decision the jury will ultimately be deadlocked)?

Yes, there are people who are a bit nutty about specific things that will be unheard by even the more discerning ear (I have to put my fellow Texicano Eric Johnson in that category...), however...

I will rarely make a (very few) "absolute" statements about electronics, mojo and people's attraction to specific components, accessories, amplifiers or instruments, because (generally) the moment I do, that person will be able to criticize the quirks and crutches (gear-wise) I have developed over the years, such as:

My unnatural attachment to a particular slide or
The way I blocked my tremolo with a stack of quarters or
The effect pedal that only gets turned on once a gig but I refuse to part with or
The "fact" that putting the ashtray bridge cover on my Strat seems to increase sustain...

But wait! That last one was true, and there's some science behind it, based on how the ashtray is pushing the saddles together tighter, to make them one complete, solid unit (kinda like how G&L has that set screw that pushes the saddles together on some of their hardtail bridges)...even if nobody else can hear it but me... :P

You can see how such a statement could be mocked or supported in equal measure...(even though I'm right about the ashtray increasing sustain :lol: ).

Ultimately, if we examined your rig(s), we would be able to criticize, mock, cajole or ignore some of the things you find "necessary and good" as hogwash...

You may or may not be right about the capacitors (I wouldn't dare argue electronics with you), but I could talk about those indefinable "mojo" things we all have and it would be just as silly as your original post (considering the arrogant spirit in which it seems to be posted).


Refreshing, SA!

8)

Arjay

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