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Post subject: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:35 am
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There is no difference in sound between a $50 paper in oil capacitor and a 1c ceramic disk capacitor of the same value.

Anyone who claims to be able to hear the difference is deluded.

That is all.

Debate it if you like. Try to justify wasting your money. Until people started selling "boutique" caps a few years back no one in the world cared what kind of cap was in their guitar. And guess what, people still made nice sounds on guitars.

The fact remains that a microfarad is a microfarad whether it's an expensive waste of money, a cheap disk or two square feet of platinum separated by the finest silk dipped in goat's blood. And if your precious "tone" relies on the choice of capacitor in your instrument then you are doing something seriously wrong. And someone else is laughing all the way to the bank.

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:40 am
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I clip my fingernails at a bias for better tone.

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:41 am
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strings10927 wrote:
I clip my fingernails at a bias for better tone.


Hey. At least you're not losing money on the deal.

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:43 am
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GilgaFrank wrote:
There is no difference in sound between a $50 paper in oil capacitor and a 1c ceramic disk capacitor of the same value.

Maybe, but how do you know?

What about resistors? do you think that Carbon comps really have more mojo to their sound or is it all hype?

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:14 am
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Caps of differing composition used in tone-control circuits alter frequency roll-offs at different rates. With the associated pot they form an RC network of unique sonic character, determined both by the type of cap, its value, and the design taper of the pot. The same principle applies to tone caps used in the pre-amp stages of amplifiers.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:19 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
Caps of differing composition used in tone-control circuits alter frequency roll-offs at different rates. With the associated pot they form an RC network of unique sonic character, determined both by the type of cap, its value, and the design taper of the pot. The same principle applies to tone caps used in the pre-amp stages of amplifiers.

Arjay


No. Different VALUE capacitors roll off treble at different rates. Or rather different values of RC.

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I don't see any factor in that equation to adjust for the composition of the resistor or the cap. Maybe someone should come up with different laws of physics that apply only to guitars.

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:29 am
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Gorgon wrote:
GilgaFrank wrote:
There is no difference in sound between a $50 paper in oil capacitor and a 1c ceramic disk capacitor of the same value.

Maybe, but how do you know?


More than most about electronics.

Gorgon wrote:
What about resistors? do you think that Carbon comps really have more mojo to their sound or is it all hype?


Define "mojo". Metal film resistors are quieter, smaller, more stable, less prone to variation in value. If you use a carbon comp in a high current circuit then it may well produce more noise. Other than that, I defy anyone to actually hear a difference, especially in a guitar amp where manufacturers use lower quality output transformers than in tube hifi amps. And most guitar speakers are useless over 8kHz. So why not use what's cheapest.

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:36 am
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GilgaFrank wrote:
I don't see any factor in that equation to adjust for the composition of the resistor or the cap. Maybe someone should come up with different laws of physics that apply only to guitars.


Have it your way, Einstein.

Good day to you.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:42 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
GilgaFrank wrote:
I don't see any factor in that equation to adjust for the composition of the resistor or the cap. Maybe someone should come up with different laws of physics that apply only to guitars.


Have it your way, Einstein.

Good day to you.

Arjay


So ... how much did you pay for your PIO caps, just out of interest?

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:53 am
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I think I paid about ten bucks for a pair of Russian mil-spec .022ufd PIO's.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:10 am
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It's good that they're military spec though. I mean. That's the important thing.

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:12 am
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I mostly agree with you, Frank. However, I know more about inductors than capacitors. So follow me here.

All inductors are not created equal. Besides the main characteristic, inductance, there is DC resistance. So there are two factors to consider when buying an inductor: go from iron core to air core to different gauge of wire, the resistance changes. The resistance plays a role in how the inductor will work in your circuit.

So I ask you, about capacitors, does resistance come into play? Perhaps even some inductance? So that the different compositions, while they may have the same capacitance, will differ in these "nusiance" parameters and sound a bit different in the circuit.

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:21 am
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Ah yes but inductors and capacitors are very different animals. Audio frequency inductors tend to be fairly sizeable coils of wire with an iron core. Beyond that design criterion, anything goes and everything has an effect. The gauge of wire, number of turns, shape of the former, core permeability, everything has a measurable effect on the inductance, DCR, self-capacitance and a billion* other factors. With capacitors there's far less to worry about. Two terminals separated by an insulator. I've never even heard of anyone worrying about the inductance of a cap, I would assume it's an insignificant quantity compared to the capacitance. The only real variable between two equal capacitors is their resistance/impedance.

Note the word "measurable". Than means "can be detected by measuring equipment". It doesn't refer to mellifluous qualities like "mojo" or "I can hear it, honest".

And again, I defy anyone to reliably tell the difference in a blind test between the same uF values for a PIO cap, ceramic disk, poly cap and a cap made from baking foil and cling film**.

* may actually be fewer than a billion
** yes, you can make caps this way

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:26 am
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you can always tell who the expert is in a room; it's the guy who refers to inanimate objects as 'different animals'.

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Post subject: Re: Capacitors, can you handle the truth?
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:27 am
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ok then, they're apples and oranges

or to use the English version, chalk and cheese

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