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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:18 pm
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Just apply more or less pressure to each note to compensate, some may require a little bend if their more than 10 cents off. If you want perfect tune you will probably need to play a midi guitar and set it to equal temperate.

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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:08 pm
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nikininja wrote:
Can I interject into this discussion, please?

Lightnin Compensated tuning is a bit of misnomer mate. Tuning itself is very very speculative. Both major and minor 3rds in particular, they're never in tune. Modern western music is never in tune. We use the tempered scale where the notes are pretty much roughed out.
This gives us an advantage in that we have a lot of leeway in what we call in tune. And also a disadvantage in that modular instruments like guitars are never in tune to even themselves.
You no doubt often find yourself tuning a guitar, then fiddling with the pegs once you start playing chords until you find a happy medium that doesn't read right on the tuner but doesn't sound as bad on the ear. This is partly because of the way the guitar is set up and partly because of the inherent design flaw of the guitar and fretted necks. I've no doubt your ears are fine. They've have however many years of hearing western music to become used to it and have no desire to precisely hear G##. No 31 frets to the octave please, we're westerners.
Every guitarist I've ever seen fiddles with tuning despite what the pedal says. I use Strobosoft, which has a range of tempered tunings and I still fiddle to get where I'm happy.

One problem with the guitar is the physical relation of the nut to the frets, slightly higher, right where you have a load of increased tension when fretting at the first to third frets.
The second of the two equally important problems comes down to actual string gauge and one strings relation to another of different gauge when both sound the same note. Tension because of gauge and position of fretting all make for inaccuracies in tuning as you start moving up the fretboard. This is why you see the fanned fret designs. String gauge differences are why we have bridge end intonation adjustment.
Unfortunately bridge end adjustment is only really accurate at one end of the guitar. The upper end, 5/6 fret and above. Which is why the compensated nut designs come about. They clean things up around frets 1-3, making for nicer sounding open chords. I strongly recommend Earvana should you wish for a drop in replacement to help a problematic acoustic that you knock out lots of open chords on.

As for fretting, intonation from both ends lessens in effect the further you get from the point of adjustment, to my ear. Compensated nuts affect intonation of fretted notes no less than saddle adjustment does because you are still manipulating the scale length of the string, albeit from the opposite end.
Hope some of that helps.

One other word of advice. Avoid compensated nuts if you can. The quest for a perfectly tuned guitar in a culture of imperfectly tuned music is a fruitless task that will drive you *nuts*. The whole venture is a rabbit hole without end. You'll likely find a foul tempered queen of hearts and a mad hatter along the way. The hole is very deep.



Thanks for taking the time!
I guess we all intuitively adjust this way and that, and your script really shed light for me on where the nature of the problem resides. Perhaps the most relief I am getting from the discussion is realizing it´s not the builder´s mistake, as I hold this luthier in high regard and I am sure you would dig this classical built for steel guitar. I play Renaissance stuff on the acoustic steel string, and so rather than obsessing with chasing rainbows, I have a pretty good idea of what notes I would like to "chisel down" as they offend on some counterpoints. I think you are so right! It´s mostly the third intervals dammit! :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:39 pm
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That's the problem with guitar. You can't adjust just one note, or even one group of notes. It's every note along the string to a greater or lesser degree depending on where you adjust.

That is why I go with barre chords (one shape) moved up and down the board, very quickly strummed and hidden in a wall of distortion. I never notice minuscule tuning problems. I have enough trouble recognising if I'm playing the same song as the rest of the band. :oops:

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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:46 pm
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Yeah, exactly. Improving the D on the 7th fret G string, which now irritates me greatly, will incide on the A at the second fret. But I´m hopeful I can strike a compromise ´cause the Early Music pieces I´m going after on this axe, most are in just three keys.

Bottom line is it´s good to know I could never solve it anywhere near how I hear things in my head, so thanks for setting me straight man!

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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:49 pm
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@nikininja:

Thanks for the explanation !

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:17 am
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nikininja wrote:
One other word of advice. Avoid compensated nuts if you can. The quest for a perfectly tuned guitar in a culture of imperfectly tuned music is a fruitless task that will drive you *nuts*. The whole venture is a rabbit hole without end. You'll likely find a foul tempered queen of hearts and a mad hatter along the way. The hole is very deep.

Bwaaahahaha! Thanks for that, Nick, that's the best laugh I've had on the Forum in weeks. :D

The subtext here, ladies and gentlemen, is that it was nikininja himself who first got me into compensated nuts. I used to think it was just a silly obsession of Buzz Feiten's - and then Nick got interested in it and learnt all about the mathamatics of it in a way I can't keep up with and started making his own compensated nuts. And then he made a compensated bone nut for me and, dammit!, the guitar really did sound better on open chords and low position fretting, and Nick had me hooked. Nowadays I still don't bother retrofitting compensated nuts to my stock guitars, but I laboriously make them for my new-builds and feel it's worth the effort.

So seeing Nick advising us to stay off compensated nuts is a lot like being told to keep away from whiskey by the guy who got you hooked on whiskey. Hee-hee - thank you, Nick! 8)

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:27 am
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Thanks guys, you just helped dispel a hard lodged obsession!
A check´s in the mail! :D

"Messing with the Tempered scale can cause a disturbance in the
Time-Space continuum creating an anti-matter parallel artifact
resulting in a psychotic-dissociative disorder whereby the subject
abandons his Music for a "higher realm" nobody seems to care for."

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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:49 am
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I'm shocked at the idea I'd ever tell any body to do any thing. :lol:

My main point is, try it but be prepared for an imperfect result. You may win in that you prefer the sound of a compensated nut to the sound of a regular nut. But you'll never attain perfection. It's simply not possible.

I much prefer the Earvana designs to the Buzz Feiten system. I got to try the Feiten on a signature series ESP. It sounds good but requires a very expensive tuner be used. The minimum being the Strobostomp which comes in at £164 last time I looked.
And if you're anything like me, you forget your tuner 80% of the time and end up tuning by ear to the bassist. That is not possible with the Feiten system.
The Earvana, particularly this one where you can slide the nut around to achieve the position that suits you best.
http://www.earvana.com/Acoustic_Retro.htm

They used to do that same design for Strats and Teles but simply don't do it any more.
Here is a picture of the measurements I got from the first fret back to the break point of each string for a Strat style guitar. Sadly it's unusable now.
I also did a Tele nut to work with 3 compensated saddles that really did sort the problem out. Sadly I lost the measurements. Though I still have a couple of nuts cut ready to drop into my Tele. When I get chance I'll bung one in and measure back from the first fret. That is the crucial measurement, not from the back of the nut. Seems obvious yeah? Didn't to me and caused many sleepless nights. Suppose I could always get that Strat back from our singer and give him some tale about it needing to be set up.
I've not done a Gibson length nut yet

Image

And this is the Strat nut in.

Image

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