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Post subject: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:04 am
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Looking through the latest issue of Premier Guitar it seemed strange to me that acoustics have an unadjustable fixed bridge and they sound beautiful. People complain about the inability to intonate a three saddle Tele which is still infinitely more adjustable than a fixed one. Some electrics of high quality have a wraparound tail that's basically unadjustable. Some adjustable electric bridges are inline with the neck, others at a sharp angle which would greatly effect intonation and limits of adjustability. Many companies offer expensive highly adjustable after market bridges that claim they are much better. It seems like it doesn't make much difference what you do, they all seems to work in their own way. I'm only understanding how you intonate the adjustable bridge you have, and it seems to be fine however it's positioned on the body of the guitar.


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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:19 am
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Hi TVR: all stringed instrument intonation is an imperfect compromise. Not only at the saddles but at the nut end as well and even the position of the frets.

The ideal solution is fretless instruments, violins and such, where the player is in complete control of the pitch of each note. But that doesn't work well for plucked instruments such as guitars, where the finger deadens the note, killing decay/sustain. So centuries ago lutes often had moveable frets made from loops of gut which you slid up and down the neck a bit to alter the temperament for different keys. The modern equivalent is TrueTemperament fretting - but most of us find this just too wacky to go along with:

Image

Personally, I like compensated saddles for Telecasters, and these days when I build guitars I make compensated nuts for them, which to my ear are a definite improvement over the traditional sort. But not enough of an improvement to bother retrofitting them to my stock guitars - it all depends how picky you feel like being.

Regarding what you say about the various approaches to intonateable - or not - bridges; again, it all depends on what your ears are happy with. All of these things are a compromise: it's up to each of us where we draw that line.

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:45 am
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Thank you Ceri. I have many guitars with every kind of bridge and it seems like I can get the intonation close, but not spot on with all of them. Your right, it has to be what each of us are satisfied with. So....with my 68 year old ears and very limited musical ability, I'm happy with about anything.


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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:01 am
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On my acoustics I run a specially formed bone saddle that costs an arm and a leg but it sounds better IMO. The guitar has less of that slightly out of tune feeling than most acoustics do when you run up and down the neck because the saddle is shaped very carfully with a curved line for a contact point. The term they use is "continuously compensated". Each string contacts the saddle at a slightly different point (intonation-wise). Most compensated acoustic saddles merely compensate for the B string. This one compensates each string. There is also the Buzz Feiton (spelling?) tuning system which I have long been threatening to try in which the stock nut is swapped out for one which, like my saddles, is continuously compensated. Each string has it's own discreet contact point. People who have tried it swear their guitars never sounded more in tune or stayed in tune longer. I might try it on my Koa-Top Strat which is my test bed guitar for trying new things.

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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:07 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
There is also the Buzz Feiton (spelling?) tuning system which I have long been threatening to try in which the stock nut is swapped out for one which, like my saddles, is continuously compensated.

Hi BMW: having a guitar "Feitenised" is supposed to be done by a luthier trained in the method. Which is stupidly expensive and in my view (humble but not entirely inexperienced when it comes to compensated nuts) a bit over the top.

At the least, I'd suggest you try an Earvana nut first, to see whether the compensating thing makes enough of a difference to you. Far more affordable, and you can easily do it yourself. And it's reversible if you find you don't care for it.

If you do like what it does for you, you could always go on to the Buzz Feiten system later. And if you do I for one would be deeply fascinated to know if you find a meaningful difference between it and the Earvana. They're extremely close, to my ears.

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:53 am
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The un-adjustable fixed bridge in acoustic guitars is a problem,
and most of them "play out".
Taking care of the variables as the instrument is being built
doesn´t seem to guarantee the accurate angle and resting
height of the bone at the bridge. Fret caliber, specific strings to be used...
there is too small of a margin on the actual bone saddle to compensate things.

Ceri, I have to read your scripts carefully, I seem to be at a loss.
I´m very interested because God willing I do plan to ask for an expensive build at least
one more time, and I am quite sensitive to these minute variations.
In retrospective, intensive ear-training in school sort of spoiled me.

I used to think my luthier was an absolute guru,
but I find now he lacks this specialty knowledge.
The thing is nylon strings are much more generous to the ear,
steel strings absolutely unforgiving as concerns intonation.
And so I´m learning the hard way, having asked him to craft
two acoustic steel-strings for me. They are amazing, except the
G string has a noticeable intonation problem, pitched upwards.

Ceri, am I right in assuming that if I can get someone to put a file to the
bone on my bridge, so the G string rests further back towards the foot of
the guitar, it will improve the intonation if the string is now sounding too
sharp in pitch when fretted? Height-wise, the bone is already as low as
the instrument will take.

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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:44 am
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Mike, worry not: this is soluble.

For starters, I'm guessing what BMW-KTM is talking about is an acoustic saddle that looks something roughly like this:

Image

There's many variations on that sort of thing at a surprising range of prices. We'd both be fascinated to know which one BMW has, and see a pic if possible. ...BMW? :)

Anyway, Googling something along the lines of "intonated acoustic guitar saddle" will find you many ready-to-go options that are easy for you or your luthier to fit.

Better still, if you're really troubled by fine differences in intonation, is to make a saddle to suit your individual guitar and string choice. Because as we know, gauge and even brand of strings can alter intonation, so the one-size-fits-all saddles are never going to be quite perfect, no matter how fancy their carve.

People get a bit sceptical about some of Stewart-MacDonald's gizmos, but they do offer a device that allows you to both ideally position your acoustic saddle and even intonate each individual string's breaking point on it, if you wish. This:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Speci ... 5046416376

Image

Image

What that widget allows you to do is work with your individual guitar and strings, intonate them perfectly and then find the exact breaking point for each one. Then you carve the saddle accordingly and - short of playing a weird and amazingly expensive True Temperament guitar built by that Swedish gentleman ( www.truetemperament.com ) - you have your guitar as well intonated at the bridge end as is possible.

However, The Intonator is expensive and using it is grown-up luthier skillfulness. Unless you're mad keen you'd probably want to have your luthier do it for you - or find someone who has it and knows how to use it.

And by the way, if you're ready to take it that far you probably also want to think about an Earvana acoustic nut for the other end of the strings. I'm not usually susceptible to guitar-tweakery-voodoo, but I do like compensated nuts. I think the advantage they offer is modest but real.

If you want the compensated nut, fit that first and then have the saddle made to match it. Then let us know how the guitar sounds.

Any help?

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:30 pm
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Yah, that's pretty close to what I'm using, Ceri. The only possible difference I can see is maybe the shape of the curve. I'm not at home right now so I can't take a pic and post it for you but that is definitely the right idea. I think mine might have slightly more dramatic curves to them without the two relatively straight sections the one pictured seems to have.

I did find that the new saddles made a perceptable difference in the overall state of tune of my guitars from one end of the neck to the other. You always tune the strings open, or at least I do anyway, and then as you move up the fretboard the lack of compensation becomes gradually more apparent. Most people can't hear it just like most people can't hear subtle differences in tone. In fast melody lines or runs or pull-offs you don't have time to hear it but I would notice slight tuning imperfections when chording triads up-neck. I won't go out on a limb and say it's perfect now but it was enough of a difference that I noticed a slight improvement.

I did price out having a luthier Feitonizing a Strat one time. I think his price came in at CAN$165. That was maybe 3 years ago. I gave the guy a $50 deposit to order in the nut from USA (I think) and then he promptly went out of bidness and I lost my 50 bones. Bugger!

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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:32 pm
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Thanks a bundle, Oh deep snow-leopardan Eldar! :D
An eye-opening tool there from StewMac.
My bridge is strings-thru-the-block, as the luthier is
a renowned classical guitar builder.
My insisting on a steel string put him on his toes.
He did a great job no doubt, and now I need to post pictures
for you though I can´t do it right away.

In this case I am thinking the solution will be to drive out,
and smooth his old stubborn head into carving a new bone,
carve and test, carve and test I guess.

Cheers, this thread is way interesting!

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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:42 pm
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you use a capo regularly, doesn't this negate any of the advantages of compensated tuning?

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:50 pm
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Lightnin MN wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you use a capo regularly, doesn't this negate any of the advantages of compensated tuning?

Hi Lightnin: actually not, no. Using a capo is just the same as fretting the strings with your fingers at a given fret position. All the work of compensating the intonation at the saddle, and at the nut too if you go that way, means the string is as in-tune as it can be when so fretted.

Using a slide; now that does remove the need for intonation, because you are finding the pitch points yourself with the bottleneck.

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:55 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
I did price out having a luthier Feitonizing a Strat one time. I think his price came in at CAN$165. That was maybe 3 years ago. I gave the guy a $50 deposit to order in the nut from USA (I think) and then he promptly went out of bidness and I lost my 50 bones. Bugger!

Gnnnnnh! Bugger indeed!

Mind you, $165 is actually less than I thought Feitenisation (if that's a word) costs. So...


mike07502 wrote:
Thanks a bundle, Oh deep snow-leopardan Eldar! :D

Haha! :D

And lest anyone think I'm some sort of expert on this, I must admit I get about halfway through the theory and mathamatics of intonation on the following huge page before my head starts hurting and I have to go for a lie down... :lol:

http://www.truetemperament.com/site/ind ... 4&sgo=0#A8

Cheers - C

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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:12 pm
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Ok here´s one of the above mentioned instruments,
Image


Image

The nut, very specific measurements which I long pondered, I wonder how one fits these intonation nuts you mention, are they custom-ordered?
Image

And finally, the culprit...I will keep you posted on how things go.
Image

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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:48 pm
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Can I interject into this discussion, please?

Lightnin Compensated tuning is a bit of misnomer mate. Tuning itself is very very speculative. Both major and minor 3rds in particular, they're never in tune. Modern western music is never in tune. We use the tempered scale where the notes are pretty much roughed out.
This gives us an advantage in that we have a lot of leeway in what we call in tune. And also a disadvantage in that modular instruments like guitars are never in tune to even themselves.
You no doubt often find yourself tuning a guitar, then fiddling with the pegs once you start playing chords until you find a happy medium that doesn't read right on the tuner but doesn't sound as bad on the ear. This is partly because of the way the guitar is set up and partly because of the inherent design flaw of the guitar and fretted necks. I've no doubt your ears are fine. They've have however many years of hearing western music to become used to it and have no desire to precisely hear G##. No 31 frets to the octave please, we're westerners.
Every guitarist I've ever seen fiddles with tuning despite what the pedal says. I use Strobosoft, which has a range of tempered tunings and I still fiddle to get where I'm happy.

One problem with the guitar is the physical relation of the nut to the frets, slightly higher, right where you have a load of increased tension when fretting at the first to third frets.
The second of the two equally important problems comes down to actual string gauge and one strings relation to another of different gauge when both sound the same note. Tension because of gauge and position of fretting all make for inaccuracies in tuning as you start moving up the fretboard. This is why you see the fanned fret designs. String gauge differences are why we have bridge end intonation adjustment.
Unfortunately bridge end adjustment is only really accurate at one end of the guitar. The upper end, 5/6 fret and above. Which is why the compensated nut designs come about. They clean things up around frets 1-3, making for nicer sounding open chords. I strongly recommend Earvana should you wish for a drop in replacement to help a problematic acoustic that you knock out lots of open chords on.

As for fretting, intonation from both ends lessens in effect the further you get from the point of adjustment, to my ear. Compensated nuts affect intonation of fretted notes no less than saddle adjustment does because you are still manipulating the scale length of the string, albeit from the opposite end.
Hope some of that helps.

One other word of advice. Avoid compensated nuts if you can. The quest for a perfectly tuned guitar in a culture of imperfectly tuned music is a fruitless task that will drive you *nuts*. The whole venture is a rabbit hole without end. You'll likely find a foul tempered queen of hearts and a mad hatter along the way. The hole is very deep.

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Last edited by nikininja on Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Don't understand intonation
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:54 pm
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Mike, I have a method of measuring the offsets needed for individual guitars.
You won't like the shipping cost though.

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