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Post subject: Re: Fender made in US,Mexico and Japan...
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:05 am
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Brotherdave, I'm interested to hear why you say the electronics are the weak point- with what line of guitars are you referring to? In the past five years at least- customshop, Seymour Duncan, Dimarzio and Lace Sensor pickups have been used as OEM, TBX and active Claptonesque boost circuits have been the norm.. This depends on the line however. If you are talking about the current Standard series, Squier or 90's versions of reissues then I have to agree. But for anything new or recent- like most people here, I can't say I can comment because I haven't had the privelege to buy one new from Japan recently to prove that theory. I can only go by what Tokais are producing, which is a very credible all round product.

I think user Herwanna made a gross exaggeration with the Mustang. But we get the point that was made.

Where the quality is seen is at the low price points they offer, vs what is being made at Ensenada. I'm beginning to think that the Japan level of quality is par with any line from the Americas, however given the fact that you can't buy a MIJ Fender new just adds to the mystique about them. It drives prices up on used mij guitars that shouldn't fall into that category. It throws fuel into the fire of the age old argument- 'MIJ guitars are better'. Which in turn, people rave about what few guitars there are in the west- most of which date from the 80's and 90's (the ones with sub-par electronics) . The irony of it all is that punters and fanboys pay silly money for them as a result.

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Post subject: Re: Fender made in US,Mexico and Japan...
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:09 am
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spacewolf wrote:
brotherdave wrote:
Buying an instrument based on color alone is probably the most stupid thing otherwise smart people do.
Since this sentence seems to be directed at me, I'm going to point out that the black version of those MIJ Jags is available over here. Having done some research on them on the internet, their owners seem quite satisfied with them. I'm not THAT stupid.



Nah I'm guilty too. I even kept a POS guitar cos it looked like the one, one of my heroes plays.

Todays marketing strategies are so powerful that sometimes we have little choice.

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Post subject: Re: Fender made in US,Mexico and Japan...
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:59 am
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brotherdave wrote:
Her Wanna wrote:
My Japan-made '65 reissue mustang has build quality about 400 to 500 times better than my American Standard Strat and Tele. It's a joke how poorly the lazy American work product compares. Through trial and error I have concluded that American standards are allowed to have one major defect -- such as a crack on rosewood bad enough to give one a splinter -- and still pass inspection. From mobile excuse typos.


I'm not with you on that figure. I also disagree about the one major defect statement. I repeat that Fender Japan sells well finished tight instruments, but the Japanese electronics are sub-standard to any other Fender. Fender USA instruments of current production have strong points too, including better and more stable neck construction and better electronics than Fender Japan or anywhere else in Asia. Even Fender's MIM electronics are better than the Fender Japan ones. Fender Japan contractors often use laminated/veneered body blanks.

At least four different plants in Japan that I know of have made instruments for Fender Japan. Fujigen, Dyna & Tokai being the big three producing the most instruments for Fender Japan. These are all HUGE manufacturing companies and they make dozens of brands, not just Fender for Fender Japan. They are contractors and not otherwise connected to Fender Japan. Fender Japan contracted out some acoustic production decades ago to Terada making them the fourth plant I know of to make Fender branded instruments. Fender Japan does NOT have their own plant. There is no manufacturing plant in Japan with a sign out front saying "FENDER" on it.

Fender Japan is a business partnership of Yamano Gakki and Kanda Shokai. Yamano is a musical instrument wholesaler/retailer with their own retail outlets throughout Japan and Kanda Shokai are a musical instrument wholesaler and exporter with no retail outlets. The two companies collectively formed Fender Japan in a licensing agreement with FMIC when FMIC was initially formed to buy out Fender from CBS. Fender Japan supplied FMIC with instruments and amps in the brief period when there was no USA production and this was way before there was a Fender Mexico plant. Fender Japan is a licensee of the Fender brand who can sell any Fender they want to sell in Japan. They have certain Asian territory. Also Fender Japan operates their own Custom Shop.

Each of the plants Fender Japan has contracted sources their own parts. They are not getting parts from FMIC including wood. There are occasionally some historical exceptions to this for PICKUPS and when this happened it was listed on the specs. This was primarily during the period when there was no USA production of Fenders.

I've owned many MIA, MIM and Japanese Fenders. They all have their points. I strongly disagree that Japanese ones are hundreds of times better. I also think that each instrument has to be judged individually and not collectively based on origin. But for sure the Fender Japan electronics are usually the Japanese instrument's weak point. Also often the Fender Japan hardware is more on par with Fender's MIM stuff than USA.

Fender Japan and FMIC are two completely different companies. FMIC does not own Fender Japan, but licenses designs and logos to the Fender Japan partnership.

FMIC went into Japan in the late 1980's to setup their own operation to make high quality instruments with cutting edge designs, advanced electronics and top quality hardware and woods. They wound up costing almost as much as a USA Standard so everyone bought the USA Standard. This FMIC owned and directed brand was called HEARTFIELD. Heartfield guitars and basses were some of the best guitars ever made in Japan, but few were willing to pay the steep price for these "best of everything" Japanese made instruments.

I currently have one Fender Japan instrument. It is "OK" but I would not say it is better than my USA or Mexican Fenders. Different, but not better. After I replaced the pickup and tone cap it is usable. I wound up spending more on it than for a USA Standard in the long run.

Color is just one consideration. Buying an instrument based on color alone is probably the most stupid thing otherwise smart people do.

I think you can get a great instrument from USA, Japan or Mexico with a Fender decal on the headstock. I can prove it.


Thanks Brother Dave for taking the time. Very illustrative. So then, the HEARTFIELD years, how long did that last before the independent contracting occurred? My two 1989 MIJ Strats I guess are from that era, which if I got you right was a period of excellence. As I stated before, I have no experrience with MIJ Fenders coming after that period, and my point is, having had now many years to compare these 89 MIJ´s to multiple other Strats American and MIM, I have come to appreciate them greatly. So I guess I can consider myself lucky, having aquired them for less than $250. I have them sitting here next to a Custom Shop, they get along just fine! :D Which is more proof that one can find a great Fender for the right price, a hot recent topic on another thread.

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Post subject: Re: Fender made in US,Mexico and Japan...
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:30 pm
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Fender Japan and FMIC are two completely different companies. FMIC does not own Fender Japan, but licenses designs and logos to the Fender Japan partnership.[/quote]


I'll never have another MIJ "Fender". Facts appreciated.


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Post subject: Re: Fender made in US,Mexico and Japan...
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:25 pm
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nikininja wrote:
Nah I'm guilty too. I even kept a POS guitar cos it looked like the one, one of my heroes plays.

Todays marketing strategies are so powerful that sometimes we have little choice.


For some of us, guitars are like women. We know we should choose them based on what's on the inside, but when they're beautiful on the outside, sometimes we just can't resist the urge to say "I'll worry about what's on the inside later".

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Post subject: Re: Fender made in US,Mexico and Japan...
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:46 pm
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spacewolf wrote:
For some of us, guitars are like women. We know we should choose them based on what's on the inside, but when they're beautiful on the outside, sometimes we just can't resist the urge to say "I'll worry about what's on the inside later".


Only with an electric guitar you CAN change whats inside. :wink: Nobodys ever divorced their guitar. LOL


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Post subject: Re: Fender made in US,Mexico and Japan...
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:19 pm
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To me, as long as it sounds good, I could care less where it was made .


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Post subject: Re: Fender made in US,Mexico and Japan...
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:58 pm
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mike07502 wrote:
So then, the HEARTFIELD years, how long did that last before the independent contracting occurred?


Heartfield was entirely contracted work. The Brand was infact set up by Fujigen as a R&D team that was used to come up with new concepts and designs but due to the type of work they were doing, there wasn't pressure to generate sales. Its sole aim was to unrestrict them from the work that was given by OEM customers. I can't find out when this team was set up, but the Heartfield line was in production from 89-93. They have been branded "Heartfield" "Heartfield by Fender" and "Fender", made in Fujigen Matsumoto and Hirooka factories. The aim was to set up a Mid to high tier priced line of 'Styled' guitars that competed in a market that Fender had no hold of, which were dominated by Ibanez and Jackson. This market represented about 30% of the new guitar market in the USA -at least. Also, sales of the high end models that Fender Japan produced were fast dwindling because of the weakened US dollar vs the Yen. This line proved to be unsuccessful due to Fender consumers wanting the usual traditional product.

Today, some lines are still manufactured in the Fujigen brand. The old Heartfield "DR" bass is now the "Fujigen Director" bass:

http://www.fujigen.co.jp/lineup/director_edr4r.asp

And the old "Heartfield", "Heartfield by Fender" or "Fender" Elan models are also still produced also by Fujigen:

http://www.fujigen.co.jp/lineup/elan_eel.asp

The EX, RR andProphecy bass line series seem to have ceased production. Talon guitars looked very similar to Ibanez RG and Jackson Performer. They also shared the same serial numbering system that Ibanez were using for their Japan line, so it was enevitable these guitars were to cease production also due to higher demand for the Ibanez Product.

Here is my 91 Talon V, it's a rare reverse headstock "Fender" branded one. All other Talon V I have seen were branded "Heartfield" or "Heartfield By Fender". The rosewood is soo dark its almost black. It has specially made Dimarzio pickups in it that were developed for this model. They're no longer in production however the closest resemblance is the Evolution or the Evo 2 pickups for the bridge, for the neck I'm not too sure of, it's a mystery what that is.
It also has special wiring and TBX tone pot.

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Last edited by Blertles on Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Fender made in US,Mexico and Japan...
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:00 pm
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Post subject: Re: Fender made in US,Mexico and Japan...
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:16 pm
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Thanks Blertles! I know now more about my 89 Japan Strats which I love dearly.
Great pictures there! The landscape reflects off the guitar, looks like a beautiful place.

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Post subject: Re: Fender made in US,Mexico and Japan...
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:43 pm
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Badass guitar right there.


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Post subject: Re: Fender made in US,Mexico and Japan...
Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:00 am
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That guitar is amazing. I need to find a lefty! ha


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Post subject: Re: Fender made in US,Mexico and Japan...
Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:21 am
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spacewolf wrote:
brotherdave wrote:
Buying an instrument based on color alone is probably the most stupid thing otherwise smart people do.
Since this sentence seems to be directed at me, I'm going to point out that the black version of those MIJ Jags is available over here. Having done some research on them on the internet, their owners seem quite satisfied with them. I'm not THAT stupid.


Nope, directed at anyone buying an instrument based on color alone. Frequent complaint about Japanese Fender offerings and beyond that instruments in general. Black is my least favorite color, but bought a black instrument that played great and sounded better than the others just like it. To me color really is a third priority. Sound, playability then color.


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Post subject: Re: Fender made in US,Mexico and Japan...
Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:36 am
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brotherdave wrote:
Nope, directed at anyone buying an instrument based on color alone. Frequent complaint about Japanese Fender offerings and beyond that instruments in general. Black is my least favorite color, but bought a black instrument that played great and sounded better than the others just like it. To me color really is a third priority. Sound, playability then color.

My priorities are similar, but Playability is always first and Sound second...it doesn't matter how good it sounds, if it doesn't "play well," it won't stay in my herd very long...sound can also be adjusted by pickup swaps, tweaks in the electronics, etc.

Style/design and color are three and four on the priority list.

Shoot, I own/play/love one of the oddest basses of all time--not just odd because of the design, but because of what the previous owner did to it...

Image

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Kids, this is your brain on drugs! :shock:

In spite of it's (ahem) unique look, I love it--it plays great, sounds great, and is well-balanced.

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Post subject: Re: Fender made in US,Mexico and Japan...
Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:13 am
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Toronado wrote:
spacewolf wrote:
For some of us, guitars are like women. We know we should choose them based on what's on the inside, but when they're beautiful on the outside, sometimes we just can't resist the urge to say "I'll worry about what's on the inside later".


Only with an electric guitar you CAN change whats inside. :wink: Nobodys ever divorced their guitar. LOL

I divorced a 1964 Fender Mustang...sent her all the way to Japan!

However, I agree about changing "what's on the inside"--a guitar can be upgraded/improved easily; better pickups, electronics (pots, caps, switches, wiring schemes), tuners, trem blocks, bridges, etc.

If it plays well, built well and it's pretty, the sound quality can often/usually be improved. Playability is always priority one (as I said in my last post).

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