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Post subject: Re: NAD, nice warm tubes.
Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 9:12 am
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SK, no reverb? I wonder if perhaps you might have been happy with a Mustang 3 or 4. The speakers matter. All those options for tones..the 4 sounds great IMO. 2X12 Celestian speakers, 150W. The M1 and M2 are simply *different* (tone ability) because of lesser speakers, IMO.

All this talk about real reverb vs. "digital." M4 sounds pretty freaking good to me.

My playing is not good, but the amp and a strat can make a nice tone.

And you already know the mustangs can do a distorted sound just fine.

Count me as a huge fan of the Mustang 4 amp. I have v.1 too. Never had the fizz. I've never been able to even turn the master volume past 4 for more than 3 seconds. Master volume on 5 will blast my eardrums out, literally, let alone shake my 28 story apartment building and cause ALL of my neighbors to send the police to my door. It happened once. I asked who complained. They said "everyone in the building." The building is 28 stories tall.

I have been having great fun lately treating my M4 as a "real amp" as someone here once said. In other words, using simply the basic models--princeton, deluxe, twin...take your pick...champ...."60s british".... and take away all the overdone effects...just a touch of reverb.

I wish I could hear a real deluxe reverb right next to my mustang because the cleans sound totally belllike and gorgeous on my M4 IMO.

For for $425, you get 150 watts (as someone pointed out, watts are watts and it's not really less because it's solid state) and 2X12 Celestian speakers that, quite simply, reproduce what your guitar is giving. (my strat has a little bit of frez buzz because the action's too low....playing on princeton or deluxe super clean, with gain at only 3 but volume at 7 (setting volume) ...so clean you hear every little thing. THe amp does what my guitar's pickups give it. Now I have not done this, but I have heard that real players will then use whatever pedals they would use...use the M4 as a "real" (tube) amp. 2X12 celestian speakers, 150W.

and yes as you know... internal reverb.

not to mention the high gain settings IMO are also great sounding...not as it is from the factory with most of them way overdone...but just dial it down some.

anyway...update us....how are you getting along with your new tube amp?

I would think if you can't do reverb then getting a pedal for reverb would be a VERY high super soon priority, right?


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Post subject: Re: NAD, nice warm tubes.
Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:00 am
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Watts are watts but a tube amp in real life will sound more than twice as loud as an equivalent wattage solid state amp. There is a technical reason for it. It's a fact. That said, solid state amps are pretty much maintenance free. Tube amps will require tube changes from time to time. The Mustang amps are fine if you like a bunch of digital effects.

But personally, I have a serious reference point and have never been happy with solid state amps. I still own a GDec 30 that just sits in the corner. I found the effects geared to 12 old metal players and none of the amp models sound anywhere near the amps they try to emulate.

I think for the style of music SK plays he made a nice choice. He's a pretty sophisticated player for his age. As for Reverb, I never missed it in a good amp. A good cabinet will resonate and add its own touch of depth to the tone. Reverb pedal are cheap. I built one for under a hundred bucks and rarely use it.

So SK enjoy your new rig and congrats!!

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Post subject: Re: NAD, nice warm tubes.
Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:38 am
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63supro wrote:
Watts are watts but a tube amp in real life will sound more than twice as loud as an equivalent wattage solid state amp. There is a technical reason for it. It's a fact. That said, solid state amps are pretty much maintenance free. Tube amps will require tube changes from time to time. The Mustang amps are fine if you like a bunch of digital effects.

But personally, I have a serious reference point and have never been happy with solid state amps. I still own a GDec 30 that just sits in the corner. I found the effects geared to 12 old metal players and none of the amp models sound anywhere near the amps they try to emulate.

I think for the style of music SK plays he made a nice choice. He's a pretty sophisticated player for his age. As for Reverb, I never missed it in a good amp. A good cabinet will resonate and add its own touch of depth to the tone. Reverb pedal are cheap. I built one for under a hundred bucks and rarely use it.

So SK enjoy your new rig and congrats!!


I’m certainly not qualified to argue with you—and I am not arguing with you—but one thing I think I can say confidently is that GDECs are outdated. It’s almost like a discontinued thing—replaced by Mustangs. I wonder what you would think about my Mustang IV (“four”) amp on the Deluxe Reverb setting. I’m not trying to be a jerk—not even a little bit. I don’t know the answer. I literally wish a pro like you could come over to my apartment and play my Mustang IV amp on Deluxe Reverb setting and tell me what you think. It sounds so clean, bell-like, pure, rich, beautiful, in my amateur opinion. I have never played a real Deluxe except for 45 seconds in a Sam Ashe. (I don’t like to plug in and be one of those guys playing in guitar center annoying everyone.) I’m talking about only the Mustang FOUR, which comes with 2X12 Celestian 80 speakers and 150W. I put the settings on Deluxe (or Princeton or Twin) Reverb, as follows: gain on about 3 or 3.5; volume on 6 or 7 (that’s setting volume…if I put master volume at anything above 4 it will literally blast my eardrums out and be Waaaaaaaaaaaaay louder than I would want to play while sitting 5 feet from my amp, even if I didn’t have neighbors); mid and treble at 5 to 7, bass at 3.5, a touch of reverb….NO other digital effects. Like pretending I’m plugged straight into a deluxe reverb amp with a touch of reverb, nothing else. Sounds great to me. I wonder what you’d think and if you’d think the M4 is an improvement over your old GDEC? My friend has an old GDEC (one 8” speaker or 10” speaker, right?), and yeah, it sounds like a $99 Line 6 Spider 15W 1X8.

No comparison.

But I say just within the Mustang line…it is not the case that models are models. The speakers matter. I also have the M1 (or my dad does) and it is not just a matter of volume. The M1’s twin reverb model sounds nothing like my M4 (not just volume abilities, if you follow me—the SPEAKERS in the M4 make it an entirely different animal, IMO). (Also, I love Fender and all of my guitars are fender, but on that note, the Mustang 1, which is closed back, sounds very, very wimpy and is very inferior to its competitor, the Line 6 spider 15 W, which I also have, which is open back even at the $99 price point and adds bass and clarity that makes the Mustang 1 sound like a very cheap toy. (In short, I don’t like the mustang 1 AT ALL). I’m not sure how SK’s M2 compares.


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Post subject: Re: NAD, nice warm tubes.
Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 12:18 pm
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I have tried the Mustang amps. I live within within walking distance to Sam Ash, and a short drive to Guitar Center and a Georges Music and my Mom and Pop shop Cintioli's in Philly.
I know my GDEC is outdated, it was outdated when I got it. I got it as a gift from a well intentioned family member otherwise it would be gone. :lol:

I have tried the whole Mustang series. I'm not saying they're a horrible amp, lots of people have a blast with them. I'm just saying they are what they are and the amp models don't sound like the original amps they're modeled after. I know because I've owned most of the amps at one time or another. Just because something is clean doesn't make it a Twin or Deluxe Reverb. The Deluxe Reverb hits a sweet spot around six on the volume dial that I can't find on any Mustang series or any modeling amp. Tubes are a whole other beast. That's why they still exist today. I don't like Marshall solid state amps either or Line 6 for that matter and Line 6 has been in the digital realm for ages.

The problem is even with 150 watts they have a hard time cutting a mix. My HRDlx had the same problem. I play in many different situations and play on stage with a lot of different musicians. My new setup is my Egnater Rebel 20 with two 112 and my Tweed Deluxe clone with an A/B/Y switch. I used to run a 100 watt 76 Twin Reverb and a Sunn Scepter with a 4x12 cab for festivals and really large gigs. Now I don't need all that power anymore.

I'm not arguing, it's just that the Mustang amps are what they are. An amp with a lot of bells and whistles, no more no less and they're not all of Fender's holy grail amps in one package.
If you like tons of effects, it's pretty cool. I have no need for them.
What I find lacking in solid state modeling amps is the tonal complexity of tube amps.

SK made a great choice for what he does as I'm sure you did too.

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Post subject: Re: NAD, nice warm tubes.
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 10:13 am
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Her Wanna wrote:
63supro wrote:
Watts are watts but a tube amp in real life will sound more than twice as loud as an equivalent wattage solid state amp. There is a technical reason for it. It's a fact. That said, solid state amps are pretty much maintenance free. Tube amps will require tube changes from time to time. The Mustang amps are fine if you like a bunch of digital effects.

But personally, I have a serious reference point and have never been happy with solid state amps. I still own a GDec 30 that just sits in the corner. I found the effects geared to 12 old metal players and none of the amp models sound anywhere near the amps they try to emulate.

I think for the style of music SK plays he made a nice choice. He's a pretty sophisticated player for his age. As for Reverb, I never missed it in a good amp. A good cabinet will resonate and add its own touch of depth to the tone. Reverb pedal are cheap. I built one for under a hundred bucks and rarely use it.

So SK enjoy your new rig and congrats!!


I’m certainly not qualified to argue with you—and I am not arguing with you—but one thing I think I can say confidently is that GDECs are outdated. It’s almost like a discontinued thing—replaced by Mustangs. I wonder what you would think about my Mustang IV (“four”) amp on the Deluxe Reverb setting. I’m not trying to be a jerk—not even a little bit. I don’t know the answer. I literally wish a pro like you could come over to my apartment and play my Mustang IV amp on Deluxe Reverb setting and tell me what you think. It sounds so clean, bell-like, pure, rich, beautiful, in my amateur opinion. I have never played a real Deluxe except for 45 seconds in a Sam Ashe. (I don’t like to plug in and be one of those guys playing in guitar center annoying everyone.) I’m talking about only the Mustang FOUR, which comes with 2X12 Celestian 80 speakers and 150W. I put the settings on Deluxe (or Princeton or Twin) Reverb, as follows: gain on about 3 or 3.5; volume on 6 or 7 (that’s setting volume…if I put master volume at anything above 4 it will literally blast my eardrums out and be Waaaaaaaaaaaaay louder than I would want to play while sitting 5 feet from my amp, even if I didn’t have neighbors); mid and treble at 5 to 7, bass at 3.5, a touch of reverb….NO other digital effects. Like pretending I’m plugged straight into a deluxe reverb amp with a touch of reverb, nothing else. Sounds great to me. I wonder what you’d think and if you’d think the M4 is an improvement over your old GDEC? My friend has an old GDEC (one 8” speaker or 10” speaker, right?), and yeah, it sounds like a $99 Line 6 Spider 15W 1X8.

No comparison.

But I say just within the Mustang line…it is not the case that models are models. The speakers matter. I also have the M1 (or my dad does) and it is not just a matter of volume. The M1’s twin reverb model sounds nothing like my M4 (not just volume abilities, if you follow me—the SPEAKERS in the M4 make it an entirely different animal, IMO). (Also, I love Fender and all of my guitars are fender, but on that note, the Mustang 1, which is closed back, sounds very, very wimpy and is very inferior to its competitor, the Line 6 spider 15 W, which I also have, which is open back even at the $99 price point and adds bass and clarity that makes the Mustang 1 sound like a very cheap toy. (In short, I don’t like the mustang 1 AT ALL). I’m not sure how SK’s M2 compares.

Gossamer--

You have truly spoken like someone who hasn't done an A/B comparison between the (decent-to-good) Mustang modeling amps and the (Good-Lord-Almighty-I'm-In-Love) Egnator amps.

Most real musicians would rather have a few dang good/great tones that a thousand "that's pretty good for the money" tones. The Egnator may not be as "flexible," but it's "better" overall.

Finally, Kyle is a dang good player, writer and producer--I trust his "ears" (referring to his abilities to choose a good instrument) because he has proven those abilities.

...don't tinkle on his parade or question his choices, because the dude's got it goin' on.

Quit thinking like a lawyer/master (de)bater and start thinking like a musician. Claiming a Mustang is an overall better choice than an Egnator is ignorance in fast motion.

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Post subject: Re: NAD, nice warm tubes.
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 12:21 pm
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Watts are no description of volume but of power. Wattage coupled with efficiency is half accurate but difficult to comprehend. 1watt @100% efficiency with a 100% efficient speaker will have you as deaf as a stone for the rest of your life, instantly.

Don't believe me, put a Vintage 30 speaker in your amp in place of a G12, G12-75, G12-65, Gold, Blue and most other Celestion speakers. You'll notice an instant increase in volume, without touching the volume control of the amp because the speaker is a lot more efficient. Though that only reads on paper as 3db more efficient.

Same with amp circuits. Crate may be able to cram 400watts into something not much bigger than a cigarette packet, but it sounds no louder than a 40watt Bassman. The amplification circuit produces more power but it's lesser efficiency means that the volume coming from the speaker is lacking.

As for Mustangs, G-Dec's and Modelling amps, they're fun. Who cares if they don't sound exactly like a 1957 Deluxe, so what? It ain't like you're gonna play the Albert Hall with it.
Got one, enjoy it, have fun. Thats what they're made for.

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Post subject: Re: NAD, nice warm tubes.
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 12:25 pm
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science, bitches

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Post subject: Re: NAD, nice warm tubes.
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 2:27 pm
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Screamin' Armadillo wrote:
Her Wanna wrote:
63supro wrote:
Watts are watts but a tube amp in real life will sound more than twice as loud as an equivalent wattage solid state amp. There is a technical reason for it. It's a fact. That said, solid state amps are pretty much maintenance free. Tube amps will require tube changes from time to time. The Mustang amps are fine if you like a bunch of digital effects.

But personally, I have a serious reference point and have never been happy with solid state amps. I still own a GDec 30 that just sits in the corner. I found the effects geared to 12 old metal players and none of the amp models sound anywhere near the amps they try to emulate.

I think for the style of music SK plays he made a nice choice. He's a pretty sophisticated player for his age. As for Reverb, I never missed it in a good amp. A good cabinet will resonate and add its own touch of depth to the tone. Reverb pedal are cheap. I built one for under a hundred bucks and rarely use it.

So SK enjoy your new rig and congrats!!


I’m certainly not qualified to argue with you—and I am not arguing with you—but one thing I think I can say confidently is that GDECs are outdated. It’s almost like a discontinued thing—replaced by Mustangs. I wonder what you would think about my Mustang IV (“four”) amp on the Deluxe Reverb setting. I’m not trying to be a jerk—not even a little bit. I don’t know the answer. I literally wish a pro like you could come over to my apartment and play my Mustang IV amp on Deluxe Reverb setting and tell me what you think. It sounds so clean, bell-like, pure, rich, beautiful, in my amateur opinion. I have never played a real Deluxe except for 45 seconds in a Sam Ashe. (I don’t like to plug in and be one of those guys playing in guitar center annoying everyone.) I’m talking about only the Mustang FOUR, which comes with 2X12 Celestian 80 speakers and 150W. I put the settings on Deluxe (or Princeton or Twin) Reverb, as follows: gain on about 3 or 3.5; volume on 6 or 7 (that’s setting volume…if I put master volume at anything above 4 it will literally blast my eardrums out and be Waaaaaaaaaaaaay louder than I would want to play while sitting 5 feet from my amp, even if I didn’t have neighbors); mid and treble at 5 to 7, bass at 3.5, a touch of reverb….NO other digital effects. Like pretending I’m plugged straight into a deluxe reverb amp with a touch of reverb, nothing else. Sounds great to me. I wonder what you’d think and if you’d think the M4 is an improvement over your old GDEC? My friend has an old GDEC (one 8” speaker or 10” speaker, right?), and yeah, it sounds like a $99 Line 6 Spider 15W 1X8.

No comparison.

But I say just within the Mustang line…it is not the case that models are models. The speakers matter. I also have the M1 (or my dad does) and it is not just a matter of volume. The M1’s twin reverb model sounds nothing like my M4 (not just volume abilities, if you follow me—the SPEAKERS in the M4 make it an entirely different animal, IMO). (Also, I love Fender and all of my guitars are fender, but on that note, the Mustang 1, which is closed back, sounds very, very wimpy and is very inferior to its competitor, the Line 6 spider 15 W, which I also have, which is open back even at the $99 price point and adds bass and clarity that makes the Mustang 1 sound like a very cheap toy. (In short, I don’t like the mustang 1 AT ALL). I’m not sure how SK’s M2 compares.

Gossamer--

You have truly spoken like someone who hasn't done an A/B comparison between the (decent-to-good) Mustang modeling amps and the (Good-Lord-Almighty-I'm-In-Love) Egnator amps.

Most real musicians would rather have a few dang good/great tones that a thousand "that's pretty good for the money" tones. The Egnator may not be as "flexible," but it's "better" overall.

Finally, Kyle is a dang good player, writer and producer--I trust his "ears" (referring to his abilities to choose a good instrument) because he has proven those abilities.

...don't tinkle on his parade or question his choices, because the dude's got it goin' on.

Quit thinking like a lawyer/master (de)bater and start thinking like a musician. Claiming a Mustang is an overall better choice than an Egnator is ignorance in fast motion.


+1 SA Kyle is a real good player no doubt. He's a young guy that has a great feel for the music he plays.

The Tweakers are nice amps with a pretty wide variety of tones on tap.

Right now I'm seriously liking the Deluxe 5e3 I built. There are a lot of amazing tones there with just three knobs. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: NAD, nice warm tubes.
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 5:15 pm
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Congrats SK you made a good choice. Thought it might be nice to get your thread back on subject. Look forward to some clips. :lol:


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Post subject: Re: NAD, nice warm tubes.
Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 1:39 am
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that's a real nice amp. good score for you!
8)

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Post subject: Re: NAD, nice warm tubes.
Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 7:53 am
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nikininja wrote:
Watts are no description of volume but of power. Wattage coupled with efficiency is half accurate but difficult to comprehend. 1watt @100% efficiency with a 100% efficient speaker will have you as deaf as a stone for the rest of your life, instantly.

Don't believe me, put a Vintage 30 speaker in your amp in place of a G12, G12-75, G12-65, Gold, Blue and most other Celestion speakers. You'll notice an instant increase in volume, without touching the volume control of the amp because the speaker is a lot more efficient. Though that only reads on paper as 3db more efficient.

Same with amp circuits. Crate may be able to cram 400watts into something not much bigger than a cigarette packet, but it sounds no louder than a 40watt Bassman. The amplification circuit produces more power but it's lesser efficiency means that the volume coming from the speaker is lacking. .

Yup. 20 efficiently processed/coupled watts are more than a person could ever need, especially if you mic it for a full live band situation.

Quote:
As for Mustangs, G-Dec's and Modelling amps, they're fun. Who cares if they don't sound exactly like a 1957 Deluxe, so what? It ain't like you're gonna play the Albert Hall with it.
Got one, enjoy it, have fun. Thats what they're made for.

I'm not insulting the Mustangs, G-Dec's and Modelling amps--I have a Line 6 Pod vs. 1.0 that I use for recording (and love it); I ignore the labels (no, it doesn't really sound like a tweed Fender Deluxe or a Marshall Bluesbreaker) and set the sound to fit the song.

BUT it's not going to replace my Vibroverb for overall usefulness, tone and general vibe---especially live.

My little diatribe was directed at a somebody who was questioning the intelligence of a person choosing their first good tube amp over a cheaper and more "flexible" modeling amp...it seemed like he was trying to start a debate/create doubt in SuperKid's mind regarding his purchase, and that's just rude.

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Post subject: Re: NAD, nice warm tubes.
Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 8:01 am
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Screamin' Armadillo wrote:
nikininja wrote:
Watts are no description of volume but of power. Wattage coupled with efficiency is half accurate but difficult to comprehend. 1watt @100% efficiency with a 100% efficient speaker will have you as deaf as a stone for the rest of your life, instantly.

Don't believe me, put a Vintage 30 speaker in your amp in place of a G12, G12-75, G12-65, Gold, Blue and most other Celestion speakers. You'll notice an instant increase in volume, without touching the volume control of the amp because the speaker is a lot more efficient. Though that only reads on paper as 3db more efficient.

Same with amp circuits. Crate may be able to cram 400watts into something not much bigger than a cigarette packet, but it sounds no louder than a 40watt Bassman. The amplification circuit produces more power but it's lesser efficiency means that the volume coming from the speaker is lacking. .

Yup. 20 efficiently processed/coupled watts are more than a person could ever need, especially if you mic it for a full live band situation.

Quote:
As for Mustangs, G-Dec's and Modelling amps, they're fun. Who cares if they don't sound exactly like a 1957 Deluxe, so what? It ain't like you're gonna play the Albert Hall with it.
Got one, enjoy it, have fun. Thats what they're made for.

I'm not insulting the Mustangs, G-Dec's and Modelling amps--I have a Line 6 Pod vs. 1.0 that I use for recording (and love it); I ignore the labels (no, it doesn't really sound like a tweed Fender Deluxe or a Marshall Bluesbreaker) and set the sound to fit the song.

BUT it's not going to replace my Vibroverb for overall usefulness, tone and general vibe---especially live.

My little diatribe was directed at a somebody who was questioning the intelligence of a person choosing their first good tube amp over a cheaper and more "flexible" modeling amp...it seemed like he was trying to start a debate/create doubt in SuperKid's mind regarding his purchase, and that's just rude.


+100

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