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Post subject: Re: Lessons. Why?
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:27 pm
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Tochai wrote:
Formal lessons or not, you should be trying to spend as much time as you can around as many people who have been playing longer than you have as possible.

This is a good idea for all musicians


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Post subject: Re: Lessons. Why?
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:54 pm
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Her Wanna wrote:
I'm a horrible guitar player, IMO. Okay? Let's get that out of the way. I can basically do my cowboy chords and power chords. I basically know the pentatonic scale but I never practice scales seriously. I can make up solos kind of Cobain-ish (not as good) because I have not bothered to truly learn to solo in the blues scale. I sort of approximate it. I can't fingerpick and I've barely tried playing with a slide. The slide I bought is too big for my pinky so I've done it with my ring finger. I can play a lot of songs that I like, both Nirvana stuff and cowboy chord stuff using a capo. But because I still can't always nail a chord with one swift plant, I like to arpeggio, which sounds pretty, but really it's cheating because I have to do that while I get that last finger down. I took exactly 4 lessons about 2.5 years ago and then have been self-taught since then. That being said...

Thoughts?


This is easy. The solution is a teacher and lessons. The right teacher for you will come, while you are waiting for him/her you will have to help this one that you have now to teach you better (there is probably a better way to say that). All of the posts so far have been helpful, hope this helps a little.

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Post subject: Re: Lessons. Why?
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:39 pm
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I'm currently self taught, and feel competent with open chords, minors, 7th and some sus, power chords and E shaped barres, and some 12 bar and a few other things. There's a hell of a lot of music right there alone.

Strumming is my strength, I suck at scales and finding note picking and soloing really tough.

I wouldn't discount getting lessons later, but I'd be talking to a few teachers first, have a clear idea of what I wanted from lessons and which teacher, if any, was best able to help with that. If you don't talk to them about what you want, you'll get what they think you want, based on where they see your current ability.

In the meantime, I follow justinguitar.com. He has a full beginners, intermediate course, rock and blues and folk modules, and more, it's all free.


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Post subject: Re: Lessons. Why?
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:29 pm
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Drubbing wrote:
I'm currently self taught, and feel competent with open chords, minors, 7th and some sus, power chords and E shaped barres, and some 12 bar and a few other things. There's a hell of a lot of music right there alone.

Strumming is my strength, I suck at scales and finding note picking and soloing really tough.

I wouldn't discount getting lessons later, but I'd be talking to a few teachers first, have a clear idea of what I wanted from lessons and which teacher, if any, was best able to help with that. If you don't talk to them about what you want, you'll get what they think you want, based on where they see your current ability.

In the meantime, I follow justinguitar.com. He has a full beginners, intermediate course, rock and blues and folk modules, and more, it's all free.


In other words, you think you know best what is... GOOD FOR YOU!!

In your case then, $$ would certainly be wasted on seeking assistance or another POV from a Teacher.

However, I have to admit that I'm not so gifted... I need someone to critique my playing.

With all the amazing things you've absorbed... (jealous here BTW)... I'm not even close to nailing those skills... or achieving your level!!!! Well Done You !!! ... [i][b]

If you don't talk to them about what you want, you'll get what they think you want, based on where they see your current ability...


Can you imagine..?? OH... the inhumanity...the Horror !!!!

The World truly needs another justinguitar.com clone...

Good for you though... seriously ! :oops:

Cheers!

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Post subject: Re: Lessons. Why?
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:04 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Someone's got their pants on too tight... That post looks like it gave you a lot of pleasure, what with all that bolding work. Good show.

I especially liked the parts were you channelled my post, and that I've decided I'm some sort of talented savant expert. John Edwards is probably looking for your number to get tips.

I provided OP some background on where i'm at learning by myself, and what I'd look for in a teacher. You know... advice, an opinion.

What your problem with that?


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Post subject: Re: Lessons. Why?
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:49 pm
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Lightnin MN wrote:
Can you imagine..?? OH... the inhumanity...the Horror !!!!

The World truly needs another justinguitar.com clone...

Good for you though... seriously ! :oops:

Cheers!


???


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Post subject: Re: Lessons. Why?
Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:29 pm
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Tochai wrote:
Formal lessons or not, you should be trying to spend as much time as you can around as many people who have been playing longer than you have as possible.


Thanks for all the responses.

Yeah I agree with this. I've been actively trying to find people to jam with. The reason I have not progressed to fancier chords is I still can't truly play mistake-free with what I know. I don't just "noodle"--I practice my Am, C, G, F type stuff to try to be PERFECT and perfect while singing, and in time, and with good picking that sounds nice. I play with the song or use a drum beat from my keyboard and try to be perfect.

I might tell this teacher what I really want right now is a jam partner and put on a drum beat and I'll play rhythm and he can solo over it and it's my problem if that's what I get for my $55 for that hour. Pathetic...sounds like paying for a friend to jam with, but I'm a divorced dad who works and my friends are all married or with kids etc and it's hard to get together.

Anyway, that is practice I need too--playing with others, in time. What I need is a drummer and bass player to jam with.

Also on the chords and what I've learned...again I'm not a snot nosed know-it-all kid who thinks I know everything, but for some reason hmmmmm I have managed to learn about 80 songs that I think sound amazing yet I've never needed a 7 chord. BTW I do know several other things I spice things up with such as Cadd9, Esus4, all the barre chords so I can do minors and other things I know that I don't even know the name of what I'm doing. Hammer ones of ONE of the fingers in a c Chord for example. Cmadd9. D7. G7 (I actually do know some of them). A7

Why is that? Much of it is Nirvana. . true, but also the amaziing Sam Beam (Iron & Wine) who I created a thread about.

Every one of his 80 songs is some variation of Am, C, G, Em, F and/or D (pick any 3 or 4) and he changes key using capo and yet his songs are earth shatteringly good.

So I've been really trying to be a MASTER of the basic chords so I can just NAIL them every time, with NO mistakes, while singing. And also picking technique. he finger picks and I try to do what he does with precise plectrum picking.

So again it’s not teenager attitude problem that has kept me from learning new chords…it’s that I know I’m not yet perfect at what I already know.

Now to get slightly defensive. IMO I’m not totally talentless. I’ve been playing for less than 3 years (actually 3 years won’t even be until September). But we all know that “how long one has been playing” has to account for practice time too.

When Kurt Cobain was learning, he (admittedly) was a jobless bum who lived rent free in his girlfriend’s house and played his guitar 10 hours a day on her couch while watching TV.

I’m a busy professional who’s divorced with 2 kids and I’m a GREAT dad and I spent tons of time with my kids so I fight to practice about an average of 40 minutes to an hour a day.

So I might have…let’s see…. 985 hours of practice time in. Is there a 10,000 hour rule for this LOL?

I have actually been on a mission to prove I can make up for the fact that I didn’t start until age 35 and that’s partly why I have learned songs.

I have also followed the advice I saw somewhere about being able to play 10 songs really well instead of 100 badly.

I kind of pretend/prepare for a real gig….and of course an open mike night type thing I’d only get..what…4 songs at most??

So I can nail about 12 songs.

I need a bassist and drummer and vocalist though. : )


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Post subject: Re: Lessons. Why?
Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:07 pm
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Well since you paid for an hr. Split that into two a half hr lesson and half hr jam session. That might get you going 3 yrs is not long and I understand about wanting to get better. With me it always seems to happen in sperts. I will figure out something and get motivated and things seem easy until my next roadblock. Keep at it and get your kids involved its fun.


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Post subject: Re: Lessons. Why?
Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:59 pm
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Her Wanna wrote:
Tochai wrote:
F

Yeah I agree with this. I've been actively trying to find people to jam with. The reason I have not progressed to fancier chords is I still can't truly play mistake-free with what I know. I don't just "noodle"--I practice my Am, C, G, F type stuff to try to be PERFECT and perfect while singing, and in time, and with good picking that sounds nice. I play with the song or use a drum beat from my keyboard and try to be perfect.


As a beginner myself, Dad of 3 small ones and so limited time too, my suggestion is to think about whether perfection is really a good use of your time - time that could be spent learning other things. Flunking the occasional chord or getting a bit out of time when playing songs isn't a crime. Weekend warriors that have been playing gigs for years will do it too.

Nailing those chords and changes will come over time. I aim to be competent at whatever level I'm working on, so I can move on. What I've found is learning harder stuff can make the previous stuff easier, because you develop more dexterity in your hands and fingers.

I get my practice in with previous material/chords/timing etc by learning and playing songs. I think perfection, or whatever that is to you, is a long slow process and you may be holding your self back trying to force it to happen.

It does sound like you might get more from playing with a band/jamming, I'd try to find as many opportunities to do that.


Last edited by Drubbing on Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Lessons. Why?
Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:02 am
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I guess I'm getting famous for long winded posts here. I'm not trying to bust your chops or brag or name drop. I'm trying to help you by answering your post. It is obvious that you want to improve as a player and take it to the next level or you wouldn't have signed up for lessons.

Went through a college level guitar course, TWICE at a local community college during different years. It was evening classes with about 30 other students and I never missed a class. I enjoyed it immensely and got some better the first time and even better the second. Check around and see if you can find anything like that nearby. Classes were two nights a week for about 10 weeks. It was very cheap compared to traditional lessons.

At the end of the second semester the instructor told me I should go see a guy named Danny Baker who was a private instructor here because I had gotten so much better that he though I might want to continue pursuing guitar. Danny Baker had a place called Baker Music Studio where he taught private lessons and did some basic recording here in town. I didn't go because I thought it would be too expensive and besides, I was primarily a bassist anyway. Another reason I dismissed the idea was because Danny Baker had a reputation as someone country players would study with. Guitar was just something I wanted to learn for my own amusement and I wasn't going to do it in public. I wasn't into country music at all and I'd had a country based bass instructor already. I could play chords and some solos to entertain myself adequately on my acoustic, so I passed on the idea. I'm a bassist and that is my primary love musically.

Previous to taking these guitar courses at the local college, I had tried a few private electric bass instructors. Before that I had already learned some on my own from the Mel Bay books and then Carol Kaye's book. Instructor #1 as a root/fifth country based guy who also taught bluegrass acoustic upright bass but he taught me to read bass clef which came easily since I could read treble clef already from 7 years of school band and chorus. Instructor #1 was a good basic instructor in music teaching several instruments and I learned the fretboard. The next two instructors came years later when I was about 30. Both were show offs who basically could not teach a gifted prodigy to tune his instrument, but each excelled at showing off what they could do in their individual flashy styles. They didn't set any goals, they didn't push me to do anything, they didn't use any method book, and basically didn't offer anything beyond how to play just like them. They were in essence giving a clinic. There was no YouTube then but these two were operating on the same basic principle as watching YouTube. But then again, I could do things that they couldn't do, like read music and play the right notes. So I stayed with one for about three lessons to try to learn the slap and tap style he played and then the second one for only 1 lesson and said thanks as I'd already decided I was not into playing Jazz fusion. A few more years pass, I do the two semesters of guitar study and I'm now in my 40's when in bass instructor #4 I found the BEST bass instructor ever and I got inspired and I developed and actually GOT IT. There are bad instructors, good instructors and INSPIRING instructors. Don't give up and you will eventually find that inspiring one. If this instructor isn't the one that gets you to "get it" switch instructors, but you need some basic instruction of some sort.

Right now you need the same type instructor I had for #1. The basics of music and how it applies to your instrument and how to read notation. Skip #2 and #3 if you can. Basic music theory, notation, scales, key signatures, meter, all that.

You are still at beginner level. ANY instructor is better than no instructor at this point. So long as they are showing you things you don't know then you are learning and getting value for the money spent. You are also getting something now you haven't gotten after 3 years on YouTube. A challenge! You can not put practicing off, you have to buckle down to do some woodshedding or it is money wasted. Tough cookies Mack, nothing worth having comes easily. Were you expecting him to do the learning for you?

A good instructor will take you out of your comfort zone into things you aren't exactly comfortable with. It is called DEVELOPMENT. That is how people learn complicated things. When I took golf lessons my goal was to hit a 300 yard straight drive repeatedly. BUT the instructor (a real PGA teaching pro) started me off for a full two lessons with a pitching wedge hitting it 25 yards into a little 3 foot wide net. Gradually lessons progressed to longer clubs and then eventually got to the driver and lastly putting. It was not what I wanted or expected but it was WHAT I NEEDED and my drives were automatically longer and straighter by the time I worked up to the driver! I could hit it up to 325 yards sometimes and straight almost all the time. I also learned to pull it and push it under control which I never imagined that I could do.

"While My Guitar Gently Weeps" is the pitching wedge your instructor wants you to learn to hit straight first. You've been noodling around at your leisure and you basically have had no goals or direction. You in essence have been hitting driving range balls as hard as you can for distance like I was. All my drives were either falling short or slicing out of control nearly every single time. Now and then I would luck out and hit one straight for about 200 yards but I couldn't repeat it on the next drive. I easily hit 5,000 balls at the driving range before even seeking an instructor to "fix my drive." He had to fix everything else first.

Pushing you out of your comfort zone and into something else tells me this instructor has something to offer, but your post sounds like you are not ready for it. Do you really want to jam playing the chords you already know with some other wannabees who are never going anywhere either as you all blissfully play cover songs till your hair falls out and then wonder why you never got anywhere with it after all those years?

Playing by ear or by copying what you see people playing on YouTube is better than not playing at all of course. The trouble is with many "ear," "self-taught" and "YouTube" guitarists is they can't play without a few days to work out something complicated at home and they never develop their own unique style because they are always COPYING someone else instead of developing their own styling and treatment for different types of songs. If you don't learn theory and standard notation you will always be somewhat restricted. The same goes for scales. For most hobby players that all might seem too intense and frankly it is quite tedious and seeming superfluous early on (like my pitching wedge lessons), but for real in demand pro pickers, that is exactly HOW they got there. That is how they manage to hit a 300 yard drive every time. So decide whether or not you want to "sort of play guitar" for funzies like a weekend duffer or if you really play at pro level.

There is a very old saying that applies here. "A man who is his own lawyer has a fool for a client." That is also true in music or painting or singing or dancing or sculpture or any art. Rembrandt had a teacher, Pavarotti had a teacher, Fosse had a teacher, DaVinci had a teacher and Esteban had a teacher. They DEVELOPED into an artist through a formal course of study under a master and unless you are really amazingly gifted at music, such as a Ray Charles/Jimi Hendrix/Gene Krupa/Stevie Wonder type gift, then your progress will be severely limited without some instructor to guide you in a course of study.

There are lots of self-taught guitarists in the big leagues. Some of the strictly self-taught ones that do manage to get lucky, guess what the first thing they do is? They take lessons to get better and actually learn music theory and how to read music because they feel inadequate. They aren't as skilled as they should be and they know it. Shouldn't a major league baseball player be able to hit the ball well to get to the major leagues? They WHY does every major league baseball team have a HITTING INSTRUCTOR? They want their players to continue to develop and get better.

Instead of a drummer and bassist, you probably need a metronome and an acoustic guitar and serious practice under direction of an instructor in an applied study of music. When you get to where you can keep time with a metronome THEN you should think about a jam with a drummer and bassist. If you can't keep time with the metronome there's no point in jamming with anyone.

The actual problem might not be your instructor. Remember that when you point at someone, three fingers are pointing back at you. I suggest you try to do what your instructor said and have it ready and go for one more lesson. If you are still unhappy then I'd ask for a refund if you can get one. And get another instructor.

Oh and that local guitar instructor I didn't go see years ago after the two semesters of formal guitar named Danny Baker? He's now one of the most in demand studio pickers in Nashville and plays lead for the Boxmasters (Billy Bob Thornton's band) both in the studio and on tour plus he just retired a very successful national touring act that he doesn't even have time to do anymore in which he called himself UNKNOWN HINSON. Yes the SAME Unknown Hinson who has a signature Reverend guitar now. I imagine Mr. Baker could have taught me a lot if I had went to see him, but I didn't. Do I regret it now? I admire his skill even if country isn't my bag. So figure it out. Here's his signature Reverend:

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Post subject: Re: Lessons. Why?
Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:56 am
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Aspiring Musician
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brotherdave wrote:
Right now you need the same type instructor I had for #1. The basics of music and how it applies to your instrument and how to read notation. Skip #2 and #3 if you can. Basic music theory, notation, scales, key signatures, meter, all that.


I may be a beginner too, but I disagree about notation.

I sucked at music at school and that ingrained a decades long belief I had no talent (which is overrated anyway) or ability. What I couldn't hack was learning Music and notation.

Once I realised I don't have to 'study' music to learn to play, that changed everything. I intend learning as much theory as I can handle, but I still have no intention of learning to read music. It isn't neccessary and not everyone wants to take the time to learn that too.

YT and video learning does have limitations. One I can think of is people tend to learn visually, and bypass using the ears, because transcribing ny ear is probably just as important.

Golf analogies are nice, as a golfer myself, I've had teachers who took very different approaches to the one you mentioned. That's not going to suit everyone, so he shouldn't accept any teacher on blind faith they know what they're doing.

But you have a point in his quick dismissal of his current teacher. If he's not happy with the stuff he's being asked to learn, then he should ask 'why'? What's the aim of doing xyz etc. He needs to communicate, to be able to decide if he is putting him on the right track. Pretty much the way you'd approach any teacher you're paying for.


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Post subject: Re: Lessons. Why?
Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:42 am
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brotherdave wrote:
I guess I'm getting famous for long winded posts here. I'm not trying to bust your chops or brag or name drop. I'm trying to help you by answering your post.
...
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Thank you very much for your thoughtful and encouraging post. I mean it. Wow.

After this morning's 6:30 AM practice session, I came here to say: "I suck at guitar. I can't play guitar and I will never be able to play guitar. And further I'm just a talentless moron and a loser."

But perhaps I'll re-read your post and think on it for a few days.


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Post subject: Re: Lessons. Why?
Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:57 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Perseverance and determination are more important than talent.

But you have to enjoy it, so your progress expectations need to be realistic.


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Post subject: Re: Lessons. Why?
Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:01 pm
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Here's a great show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOQ89Zpn3ew

Can anyone find a 7 chord in this entire hour and 20 minutes??? :wink:


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Post subject: Re: Lessons. Why?
Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:24 pm
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After you think you've learned it all, it could be a good idea to get an evaluation from a stranger that isn't afraid to say what your shortcomings are on guitar or bass.


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