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Post subject: Re: Anybody still have long hair??????
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:40 am
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arth1 wrote:
philipk wrote:
60s, parents wouldn't allow it, 70s, 80s, 00s and 10s jobs wouldn't allow it.

That depends on where you are. Many if not most places have had gender equality laws in place for several decades now, where they can't demand that women wear skirts or dresses and can't demand that men have short hair. Unless they make the same requirements of everyone regardless of gender, it risks running afoul of the law. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I remember wearing a hair net at one consulting job back in the early 90s. That was okay - it was a workplace safety thing, with printing machines that could grab hair. But I have never cut my hair for a job since the day I left the Air Farce.


Generally right (I've dealt with labor law for the past 26 years now and my grad degree's in an HR area). You can't force women to wear a skirt/dress but if men are required to wear suits, they can be required to wear a comparable pant suit. To be clear, I'm talking about a non-religious business here since there are some exceptions in that area. As to the broader question of: can I require men to get haircuts, women to wear pantsuits, etc. ... that depends on their function and whether or not they were informed up front.

If in client/customer contact (as I was for all but the last 7 years to date), a company has generally more leeway in dress/hair requirements than if you're in a back room job. You must reasonably connect your requirements to business and the other key is: you have to tell me about it before I accept the job. There will be grey areas too -- what if you're back room but customers occasionally get "the tour?" In that case. Dept of Labor have held that they can't apply contact standards because it's casual, not part of your job. But on the other hand if you know up front that you're going to be on a "showcase" production line and are expected to be neat (still in context of factory work), I can probably apply the neat standard.

Finally, exactly as the OP says: you have to be fair. Different standards with no connection to the job or business is a terrific way to end up in a labor hearing. It doesn't matter why (I don't dare tell Joe to get a haircut because he's the VP - Sales' prima donna kid; I don't care if it's casual Friday, this is Accounting and Jane WILL wear a pant suit or dress because that's what Accounting personnel do). If you can't connect a policy to actual business, then you're best off not having it.


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Post subject: Re: Anybody still have long hair??????
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:55 am
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Generally right (I've dealt with labor law for the past 26 years now and my grad degree's in an HR area). You can't force women to wear a skirt/dress but if men are required to wear suits, they can be required to wear a comparable pant suit. [/quote]

So in other words - I hope I got this right - women can basically wear what they want, but men are forced to wear what a company demands.


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Post subject: Re: Anybody still have long hair??????
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:40 am
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F-Stop wrote:
Generally right (I've dealt with labor law for the past 26 years now and my grad degree's in an HR area). You can't force women to wear a skirt/dress but if men are required to wear suits, they can be required to wear a comparable pant suit.


So in other words - I hope I got this right - women can basically wear what they want, but men are forced to wear what a company demands.[/quote]

That's not what I said: if men are required to wear suits, women can (and should) be required to wear comparable attire. And all that's conditioned by the job and if you were made aware of the requirement up front. No, I can't tell men to come in wearing a suit while women wear jeans and a t-shirt ... assuming they're in the same or comparable functions. As the OP also noted, it is true that women have a choice between dress and business quality pant suit if that type of dress is required. But that's because there's no men's formal wear counterpart to a suit that I know of.

For instance, our outside sales reps are required to wear slacks and a dress shirt (men) or pant suit or skirt/blouse (women). The rule applies to both. In house, no such requirement for either gender.

When it comes to hair, there's always going to be some issue, but less so today than in the 70s and 80s. I see all lengths (men and women) in our in house departments. Remember that the DOL and courts are part of the equation too. Back in the 70s, it was culturally acceptable that women had long hair while men didn't. Today, not so much in most jobs. You'd be hard pressed to get a DOL, court or arbitrator to rule in favor of strict hair regs today "just because."

But just to be clear: no, you cannot impose a different standard for men and women for the same or comparable jobs/functions. And be careful too if you have some hiring bias that tends to channel men and women consistently into different jobs. There's always going to be a subjective element based on cultural and industry standards. We have a data entry guy who wears nail polish ... but I'd be 99.99% sure that if he were in outside sales, I could tell him to remove it pronto. Yet, I could probably do the same for a woman (sales rep) who came in with some outlandish nail job. So yes, perhaps a bit unfair: my outside sales guy can't wear any nail polish while a woman could up to a point and based on cultural standards, this would likely stand up.

(All of which, as my closing opinion, and this is MY OPINION only, not law or any interpretation thereof, is why we as a society have become so fragmented and petty. So many have to insist on their little micro-rights that it's really come down to either allow nothing at all or allow a total free-for-all.)


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Post subject: Re: Anybody still have long hair??????
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:09 am
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philipk wrote:
F-Stop wrote:
Generally right (I've dealt with labor law for the past 26 years now and my grad degree's in an HR area). You can't force women to wear a skirt/dress but if men are required to wear suits, they can be required to wear a comparable pant suit.


So in other words - I hope I got this right - women can basically wear what they want, but men are forced to wear what a company demands.


That's not what I said: if men are required to wear suits, women can (and should) be required to wear comparable attire. And all that's conditioned by the job and if you were made aware of the requirement up front. No, I can't tell men to come in wearing a suit while women wear jeans and a t-shirt ... assuming they're in the same or comparable functions. As the OP also noted, it is true that women have a choice between dress and business quality pant suit if that type of dress is required. But that's because there's no men's formal wear counterpart to a suit that I know of.

For instance, our outside sales reps are required to wear slacks and a dress shirt (men) or pant suit or skirt/blouse (women). The rule applies to both. In house, no such requirement for either gender.

When it comes to hair, there's always going to be some issue, but less so today than in the 70s and 80s. I see all lengths (men and women) in our in house departments. Remember that the DOL and courts are part of the equation too. Back in the 70s, it was culturally acceptable that women had long hair while men didn't. Today, not so much in most jobs. You'd be hard pressed to get a DOL, court or arbitrator to rule in favor of strict hair regs today "just because."

But just to be clear: no, you cannot impose a different standard for men and women for the same or comparable jobs/functions. And be careful too if you have some hiring bias that tends to channel men and women consistently into different jobs. There's always going to be a subjective element based on cultural and industry standards. We have a data entry guy who wears nail polish ... but I'd be 99.99% sure that if he were in outside sales, I could tell him to remove it pronto. Yet, I could probably do the same for a woman (sales rep) who came in with some outlandish nail job. So yes, perhaps a bit unfair: my outside sales guy can't wear any nail polish while a woman could up to a point and based on cultural standards, this would likely stand up.

(All of which, as my closing opinion, and this is MY OPINION only, not law or any interpretation thereof, is why we as a society have become so fragmented and petty. So many have to insist on their little micro-rights that it's really come down to either allow nothing at all or allow a total free-for-all.)[/quote]

Thanks for the clarification. Things have definitely changed, and a little better for men it seems. I do agree that we need some sort of dress code, but not so over bearing like it was a few decades ago. A total free-for-all, as you mentioned, would be disastrous. One company that my wife worked for a number of years seemed to have that sort of policy. The way some of the women dressed must have given prostitutes a difficult time choosing what to wear. I used to pick her up after work, and it was like watching Walmart shoppers (if you know what I mean) coming out of the building.

Cheers


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Post subject: Re: Anybody still have long hair??????
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:43 am
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philipk wrote:
As the OP also noted, it is true that women have a choice between dress and business quality pant suit if that type of dress is required. But that's because there's no men's formal wear counterpart to a suit that I know of.


I expect you meant "counterpart to a dress", else black tie and white tie would qualify.
But anyhow, yes, there are formal wear counterparts to dresses too:

Image


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Post subject: Re: Anybody still have long hair??????
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:09 pm
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8) cool photo Art, terah for posting. 8)

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Post subject: Re: Anybody still have long hair??????
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:54 am
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Hah ... love the photo! Ethnic dress did cross my mind -- wearing afros and African clothes was a big issue back when I first started working. And I had a friend who worked at a company that okayed an employee wearing a kilt. It was the start of a Scottish festival weekend and he didn't want to go all the way home (nearly an hour drive, so I was told) to change on Friday night. Company said fine, but with the proviso that he not go commando.


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Post subject: Re: Anybody still have long hair??????
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:14 am
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This was an afternoon benefit gig in February, me on the left. It's longer now. At 50 I'll grow it as I want at this point, employer doesn't like it but I've been here 15 years and never been late or called in sick. My reliability buys me some freedom I guess.

Image


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Post subject: Re: Anybody still have long hair??????
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:36 am
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WI KISSfan wrote:
This was an afternoon benefit gig in February, me on the left. It's longer now. At 50 I'll grow it as I want at this point, employer doesn't like it but I've been here 15 years and never been late or called in sick. My reliability buys me some freedom I guess.

Image


I'm glad you have an employer that allows you to have long hair, even though he doesn't like it. There's always a stigma attached to men if we don't all conform to look like Ward Freakin' Cleaver (the Beaver's dad). Like I have always said, women have far greater freedom when it comes to dress code and hair code, if you want to call it that. I learned the other day that if you are invited to the white house, and I assume the oval office to see the President, men HAVE to wear a suite and tie. Well I guess I won't be going to the oval office, even if I am invited.

Love the jersey. Go Hawks!!! They did a good one on the Lightning last night. I love it when a team waits to the last few minutes of regulation time to sock it to them. :D


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Post subject: Re: Anybody still have long hair??????
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:45 am
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F-Stop wrote:
WI KISSfan wrote:
This was an afternoon benefit gig in February, me on the left. It's longer now. At 50 I'll grow it as I want at this point, employer doesn't like it but I've been here 15 years and never been late or called in sick. My reliability buys me some freedom I guess.

Image


I'm glad you have an employer that allows you to have long hair, even though he doesn't like it. There's always a stigma attached to men if we don't all conform to look like Ward Freakin' Cleaver (the Beaver's dad). Like I have always said, women have far greater freedom when it comes to dress code and hair code, if you want to call it that. I learned the other day that if you are invited to the white house, and I assume the oval office to see the President, men HAVE to wear a suite and tie. Well I guess I won't be going to the oval office, even if I am invited.

Love the jersey. Go Hawks!!! They did a good one on the Lightning last night. I love it when a team waits to the last few minutes of regulation time to sock it to them. :D


I'm actually more of a Christmas Vacation fan than hockey.....it's a "Griswold-00" jersey. If you're a fan of the flick it's what he has on when Eddie pumping out the "shitters" on the RV. :D :D

I've heard the Hawks are doing well too.


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Post subject: Re: Anybody still have long hair??????
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:56 am
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WI KISSfan wrote:
F-Stop wrote:
WI KISSfan wrote:
This was an afternoon benefit gig in February, me on the left. It's longer now. At 50 I'll grow it as I want at this point, employer doesn't like it but I've been here 15 years and never been late or called in sick. My reliability buys me some freedom I guess.

Image


I'm glad you have an employer that allows you to have long hair, even though he doesn't like it. There's always a stigma attached to men if we don't all conform to look like Ward Freakin' Cleaver (the Beaver's dad). Like I have always said, women have far greater freedom when it comes to dress code and hair code, if you want to call it that. I learned the other day that if you are invited to the white house, and I assume the oval office to see the President, men HAVE to wear a suite and tie. Well I guess I won't be going to the oval office, even if I am invited.

Love the jersey. Go Hawks!!! They did a good one on the Lightning last night. I love it when a team waits to the last few minutes of regulation time to sock it to them. :D


I'm actually more of a Christmas Vacation fan than hockey.....it's a "Griswold-00" jersey. If you're a fan of the flick it's what he has on when Eddie pumping out the "shitters" on the RV. :D :D

I've heard the Hawks are doing well too.


Haven't seen it, but it sounds funny. I'll look it up. :D

Yep, the Hawks are doing well. They just took the first game in the Stanley Cup finals last night.


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Post subject: Re: Anybody still have long hair??????
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:06 am
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Haven't seen it, but it sounds funny. I'll look it up. :D

Yep, the Hawks are doing well. They just took the first game in the Stanley Cup finals last night.[/quote]


Here ya go........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fyS5CLBgyM


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Post subject: Re: Anybody still have long hair??????
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:34 am
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WI KISSfan wrote:
Haven't seen it, but it sounds funny. I'll look it up. :D

Yep, the Hawks are doing well. They just took the first game in the Stanley Cup finals last night.



Here ya go........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fyS5CLBgyM[/quote]

That was funny. Gotta watch the whole movie now. We have guys like that not too far east of us. Our beloved city was voted #3 red neck city in America. Yep, they be right on that one. :roll:


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Post subject: Re: Anybody still have long hair??????
Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:04 am
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Hey, I was thinking about this subject this very morning over my third cup of coffee, and came across this thread. Ain't that cool?

So, I wore 70s style hair until 1989, more or less, then I started to wear something that was kinda like a 50's semi-rockabilly do, with some Suavecito fo keep it in its place.

A couple of years ago I felt like growing it again, and now I'm back to the 60s/70s mane...

This pic is from a couple of months ago. I had just gotten dressed for a gig, so the mane was still tamed. By the last set it was more "Jim Morrison" like...

Image

Peace and love!


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Post subject: Re: Anybody still have long hair??????
Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:48 am
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philipk wrote:
But just to be clear: no, you cannot impose a different standard for men and women for the same or comparable jobs/functions.

shoot, these days? A guy could probably insist on wearing an evening gown to work and get away with it. :lol: Companies are afraid of those kind of law suits because in addition to losing money, they can get terrible press. Look what happens to celebrities when they make some dumb statement on Twitter. Everything is amplified.


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