I've been around for most all of rock n roll. To me, rnr is a feeling or a mood, and imperfect is the norm for it. So to me, this song is great, and I bet you can't nail the solo. If I want perfect musicianship, I go to the symphony or opera. The best rnr I have heard is not a million miles an hour acrobatics. Are the Stones perfect? Not by a long shot. But they are models of rnr. All of it is subject to one's taste.

Welcome back, Gossamer/Skirt So Plain/Earnest.
I quoted your whole post in case you delete everything again.

As far as this song ("Sappy"), to me it just sounds like another typical Nirvana song. Kurt and the boys had something that worked for them (and sold well, whether he really disliked the popularity/fame/fortune or was just trying to appear to be an outsider/rebel) and they were smart in developing a unique style. I mean, nobody really sounded like him before or since.

I still think their best album was the "Unplugged" disc--he showed a bit more range in that show than any other disc or performance I've seen/heard.

I was 21 when "Nevermind" was released. I thought some of the songs were interesting, and I liked the "loud & distorted/soft & cleaner" dynamics of their particular style. I didn't hate grunge, but it didn't do that much for me, either...to me, the best thing about the Seattle Grunge Movement was how quickly the hair metal/shredders lost favor.

Unfortunately (on a human level) but fortunately for his legacy, he didn't stick around long enough to become a has-been cliche...since they were a bit one-dimensional, I don't know if Nirvana would have stayed relevant...If he was developing something new in his playing or style, I didn't hear it, so he might have been relegated to a "Nostalgia Band" status by now, playing double bills with Silverchair or Sugar Ray at the local Indian Casino.
Pearl Jam has stayed relevant to a certain degree, but they developed a Dead/Allman Brothers/Phish/Widespread Panic type of following, with the constant touring and encouraging bootlegs, etc.
Soundgarden has stayed popular because they quit performing/putting music out for several years and made people hunger for something new.
Alice in Chains had a similar fate as Nirvana, due to losing a member (although they reformed with a new singer and seem to be doing well artistically).

Does the solo fit the song very well? Sure.
Is it technically spectacular? Nope, but that wasn't "his thang," as we say down in Texas...one of my favorite guitarists (Hound Dog Taylor) was about as non-technical player that ever came along, but I love his playing.

To me, it wasn't a particularly moving song or solo...just another typical Nirvana song...but Kim Wilson's "Money, Marbles and Chaulk" might not do for you what it does for me.

As far as bending and vibrato and how soon it "came to me":
Almost immediately. I've never been a really great technical player (especially in my early years), but I guess I had a natural "bend" ( ) for bending notes and a very passable vibrato right off the bat. Both techniques/skills have improved with time/experience.
All of my "heroes" that I sought to emulate early in my playing were note-benders as well (the Three Kings, Jimmie Vaughan, Muddy Waters [although he played micro-tones more often than bends, he did play both], SRV, and Keef Riff-hards).
I think playing a second instrument in which bends are very important(harp/harmonica) has helped develop those skills as well.

If you want to develop more vibrato...even though you don't seem to be a blues player, check out how BB King does it...that wobbly, seemingly out-of-control thang he does is amazing and a good starting point.

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Good Vibes To Y'all!



Screamin' Armadillos
Texas Roadhouse Music
Guitar/Slide Guitar/Harp/Vocals

1. Yup. It's all about emotion. Music can make you happy, sad, curious, puzzled, amazed, shocked, frustrated or calm and everything in-between all that. Many times I've been sad and song will make me happy or visa versa. But for some, it's not all about how many notes you can cram into a song. For some, it is as cramming notes elicits excitement, intrigue, and awe and they find the process pleasing!

There was a time when I was fascinated by Malmsteen. Now? Most of time I can tolerate him for a few minutes but then it becomes boring. Sometimes I thoroughly enjoy it, particularly when I'm working on that type of technique for a *part* in a song. I like songs that are dynamic...slow to fast, fast to slow, moderate to slow, slow to moderate, slow with bursts, bursts with slow, or slow, moderate, fast. It's all about mood, creating a mood, taking the listener on a journey of emotions.

2. I know exactly how Jimi composed his music. He learned technique, created musical structures, and then improvised and extrapolated on top of that. Instead of creating note for note compositions, he simply followed a structure and improvised like a jazz player. Those structures then developed into what we know as songs.

For me, improvisation is either spontaneous and sounds good (the hand, working with the brain, is quicker than the eye), or is thought structures of musical passages that just immediately translate into the fingers. Often times this occurs while playing a chordal section or passage robotically, the new idea comes up, I can see it in my head and then, again, it just translates into the fingers.

I often wondered where that came from at first, but then I realized it's simply how amazing the brain and body are in the way they work together if you teach the body how to do a mechanical action and then let the brain guide body. It's like sparring, fighting. You react to the task at hand. Somebody swings at you, you throw a block or go for the kill shot, or both, or not if you need to reposition yourself or oponent to make the kill shot. ...even combat is musical and can either be a structured attack or a complete improvisation, whatever works for you, whatever works at the moment.

Some people just don't get the mind body connection or they don't understand the "universal mind"...a field of thought we all share outside of our bodies.

If you watch this information in its entirety, you'll understand better what I am saying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaDOkMEK4uk

3. I think the solo is good, classic Cobain -- simple, captivating. I'm working on a few of his songs, though "easy", mimicking his emotions to get it just right on command is the trick but requires practice if you are not accustomed to that style of playing!

4. I got my first guitar during 1964, didn't have a clue. Got an SG during 1973 and started taking lessons from my uncle who taught me about bends. When I started listening to Jimmy Page, I discovered the beauty of bends immediately! The emotional bends in Stairway to Heaven blew me away! Then, Smoke on The Water. From there, I learned to love bendy solos.

Interesting topic as I just started delving into Cobainisms!

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"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a Conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists. The American mind simply has not come to a realization of the evil which has been introduced into our midst." J. Edgar Hoover

I always was on the fence when it came to Nirvana,some of their music sounded OK to my ears but a lot of it just didn't cut it and this song is one of them.Seriously I didn't find anything about "Sappy" that moved me in any way and to tell the truth I found the lead break to be quite pedestrian.Cobain may have been a decent lyricist but he certainly wasn't a stellar guitarist and his playing in this song hardly would make it a showpiece. As for Cobain's bending,it isn't very accurate and actually goes either sharp of flat on the note that he tries to bend to.

If I were going to show someone a good example of bending,I'd take out one of my Albert King,Buddy Guy,Jeff Beck or Jimi Hendrix albums. Jimi especially was probably the guitarist who could bend notes farther than just about any other player.If you are ever lucky enough to find a recording of the live show he did at the Royal Albert Hall in London,pick it up.On the R.A.H. album he does a version of Bleeding Heart where he really makes the guitar wail like he never did before.He pulls out all the stops in this version and does some of the most brilliant playing and incredible bends of his whole career.Any compilation album of Albert King would give you some great demonstrations of what really good soulful bending is.If you want to see brilliant left hand technique and hear meticulous bending pick up the Jeff Beck at Ronnie Scott's DVD.Any Buddy Guy album is sure to contain a large number of the most exquisite and neck blistering bends that you'll ever hear.

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'65 Strat,65 Mustang,65 Jaguar,4 more Strats,3 vintage Vox guitars,5 Vox amps,'69 Bassman with a '68 2-15 Bassman cab,36 guitars total-15asst'd amps total,2 vintage '60s Hammond organs & a myriad of effects-with a few rare vintage ones.

I believe that was his intention and is what gave him his signature sound!

I studied World Music in college and learned to love more than the 12-step octave precisions. There's a lot more to music than we Americans have grown accustomed to! There's a lot of emotion in-between the notes of an octave if you are taught how to discern that information. Cobain obviously understood and used that information!

I think he was a feckin' genius in his simplicity and the misunderstood complexity of the in-between tones he used to elicit emotion from the listener!

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"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a Conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists. The American mind simply has not come to a realization of the evil which has been introduced into our midst." J. Edgar Hoover

One of my favorite tunes, actually. I remember the first time I heard it like ten years ago - back when downloading music on the internet was a new thing (at least to me) I used it for nothing but looking up unreleased nirvana and obscure punk/90s bands...
Kurt was what he was, and i find it funny that people get so upset discussing what he could or couldn't do. go read an interview. he knew he wasn't the greatest, and it worked for him. I think what really upsets people who have subscribed to the malmsteem school of guitar their whole lives is that someone like kurt made it... got a record deal, started a musical revolution of sorts, killed hair metal, and knocked off michael jackson in the number one billboard spot... and at the height of all that, commits suicide(maybe).
So all these guys who had spent years and years honing their guitar skills and are still working at burger king are never going to have anything but hate for the man. of course.

I like the slower version of this song better, myself. IT moves me. but they're both awesome.


as for how long i was playing before i "got" bending/vibrato... probably 5 years or so. those first 5 years I didn't really learn much. just cranked distortion and played in drop D. I'm happy to report I've since gotten more serious and my tastes have broadened a lot. along with nirvana and the like, i also listen to tons of surf, blues, and pretty much anything with some cool guitar work. I'm really digging John 5 at the moment. I'd suggest everyone go get a copy of The Art of Malice. Incredible record.

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~Dan

Sorry for mistakenly attributing that quote, guys. I didn't do it intentionally and I certainly didn't mean to hurt anybody's feelings, that's not why I joined this forum. This is the only forum I've ever been a member of, and it's taken a while to get used to some of the technical aspects of forum use.

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"Today Atlantis, tomorrow the world!"

Just a good laugh and a funny incident I understand the difficulties - it's seen all over the place , also from the ''veterans'' here ! I do not suspect you for being a troublemaker , not at all ! For the record , this is also the only forum I am a member of , and it is usually rather peaceful here

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A-man

Hi RCB-CA-USA first I'd like to clear up one thing,I'm not American but Canadian. I too am interested in music of other countries and cultures and have a sizeable collection of it especially India and Japan and the Mid-East so I'm well acquainted with the realm of "in-between" notes.Ravi Shankar was a master of using those notes as is Yo Yo Ma on his Silk Roads albums.They both utilize this approach and never sound dischordant in fact they are incredibly melodious.Cobain may have been trying to achieve the same effect but to me it sounded slightly off-key rather than harmonious as Ravi and Yo Yo sound. Cheers.

.

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'65 Strat,65 Mustang,65 Jaguar,4 more Strats,3 vintage Vox guitars,5 Vox amps,'69 Bassman with a '68 2-15 Bassman cab,36 guitars total-15asst'd amps total,2 vintage '60s Hammond organs & a myriad of effects-with a few rare vintage ones.

I agree that feeling is critical, otherwise all you have is a perhaps technically efficient piece of music. Machine written lyrics and stock patterns might make for scripted hits, but they're not the songs people pass on from one generation to the next.

But I also agree that you should learn bends and vibrato because they're two techniques that you can use to bring emotion. Overdone thought and they can become mechanical, so besides mastering bends, vibrato, etc., use them sparingly and in just the right places. I wasn't overly impressed with the linked song but, Cobain didn't do anything wrong in it either. The solo isn't out of place and is tight and controlled. So credit for not overplaying the material is due.

As I learned through years of bass playing, as critical as the notes you use are those you don't play! The solo here works in that context.

Hey guitarslinger! I already know you are Canadian. You about popped a gasket when I dug into Canada in the Christmas Tragedy thread. FYI, I'm Russian, Austrian, Polish, German, Italian, English, Cherokee Indian, and Semite, born in the US of A!

The World Music course I took taught all of the above and then some, and then some more. I kicked butt on the honor students too; even after they sabotaged my test, everybody got a unique test to thwart cheating. Nothing is fool-proof I guess. I studied so thoroughly I was able to discover the sabotage and went in an aced the final exam, much to their chagrin. I did an in-depth study on harps for extra credit in the event I botched something on the final. Besides Art History and A+ certification...and Math 13 (Mathemetical Ideas. Includes topics in logic, voting theory, management science including circuits, probability, statistics, growth and geometry and related applications such as the traveling salesman problem, fair division, symmetry in nature, and population growth.), World Music was one of the most challenging and rewarding courses I ever completed!

Have you listened to System of a Down? Toxicity, that compilation has strong middle eastern influences.

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"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a Conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists. The American mind simply has not come to a realization of the evil which has been introduced into our midst." J. Edgar Hoover

Everything is subjective, but yeah I know there are "better" and/or other Nirvana songs. I purposely chose this one to give the Boomers a demonstration, because the Boomers here will not have heard it. Only Nirvana fans who go to the deep cuts have heard of this song, which is a cult classic among serious fans.

This song is sung to his pet turtle, by the way. It's not some kind of feminist anthem like some believe. Classic Kurt. He had a pet turtle that he kept in a laundry room. He gave it breathing holes. He covered it with grass, so it would think it was happy.

I didn't say this is "the one" that moves me. I said it moves me. That does not imply that there are not other things that also move me. Stairway to Heaven moves me too. The purpose of this thread was to see if any of the Boomers who think guitar playing started and stopped with Eric Clapton and that guy from "the Who" would think this is a good solo.

Yeah I like "Sad Sappy" too. It's a good song for anyone who appreciates Nirvana. The tone. The mood. Sappy. Sad. Happy. It's also sappy. It's really about his pet turtle who lived in a laundry room in a jar. He's screaming, "You're in a laundry roooom!!!!!!" to his pet turtle. I'll give you breathing holes, and you will seem happy. I'll cover you with grass, and you'll...think you're happy. It's funny. It's early 90s. It's Gen X. It sums up Kurt's music. And I think the solo sounds good, incidentally.

Great post dude. Thanks. And forget Malmsteen school of guitar. It's the Claptonites who can't stand Nirvana. People who like metal appreciate Kurt more than the Townsendites do.

Yeah, the "In Bloom" solo is, of course, awesome.

I sense a strong urge here to put people into cubicles . Maybe that is a good thing , since many people don't want to use their own mind for meaning something . Let's keep it in the tribe !

I , for one , have always admired people (musicians ,too ) who dares to go their own ways (for instance Kurt) And I think that those who don't like pushing people and music into narrow cubicles , have a much larger ''menu'' of music to choose from , to enjoy , to learn from and to play

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A-man