Bill, that one is the Custom Shop version and therefore came from the factory that way.

But yeah, who'd call Claptons Blackie non Fender. Fender certainly wouldn't, they copied it.

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No no and no

Irrelevant if the photo was of the Custom Shop version or the real Blackie. It is what the photo represents that is important.

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Bill

I just want to thank everyone who's weighed in so far.

I guess I just got tired of seeing the same types of arguments over the questionable or outright fraudulent uses of Fender decals on absolute non-Fenders or cheaper Squiers, and just wanted a discussion from a different angle, even if it is purely academic.

Whether it's possible to order all the components from Fender, I specified it that way to avoid the fraud angle. If one could buy everything factory direct, there is no fraud, as Fender will have made the money on it either way.

I don't think the money angle is pertinent. I mean a lot, perhaps even the majority of the Guitar owners here didn't buy their Fender new. One of my Fenders is used.

But the discussion is endless because where do you draw the line..??

My MIM Deluxe Series 'Nashville' Tele has been modded, the middle pickup removed, the selector switch exchanged for the 3-way, the pickguard replaced - all Fender parts, but no longer strictly a 'Nashville'.

What if you add Seymour-Duncans ? A Bigsby ? Even non-Fender strings..??

Since your discussion inquired where does one draw the line, again the obvious one is if it didn't come assembled from the Factory. I'd make Hardware the exception, partly because these things can wear out.

cheers!

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'11 FSR Am. Vtg. Ltd. Ed. CAR '57 Stratocaster (SN# LE02639)
'14 American Deluxe Ash Stratocaster
'12 Telebration Empress Telecaster
'99 Deluxe Nashville Telecaster
'12 FSR Telecaster HH
'10 Heritage H-535
'99 Martin DC-1E
'13 Lanikai Tenor Ukulele

What do you consider to be "hardware"?

Leo's original design capitalized on the fact that all parts of his guitar could be replaced as they broke or wore out. He even went so far as to say that a worn neck could be mailed back to the factory and a new neck sent out to the owner (whether that ever ocurred or not, I don't know). So, "back in the day" if you mailed Fender your worn out neck and dead pickup and Leo himself sent the replacement parts back to you (not many electric guitar techs around back then) would you say your guitar was no longer a "Fender" since it wasn't assembled in the Fender factory?

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Bill

I know it's endless, with all sort of funny lines. I'm not looking to solve anything. Just thought it was just a different angle to discuss, for those interested.

My latest instrument, the Jazz bass, is used too, but my Squier strat and both my Fender amps were bought brand new.

I only mention the money angle, as many misuses I have seen of Fender decals were to misrepresent something other than a Fender under the Fender name for someones personal profit.

To keep that from being a central point of the discussion, I tried to specify using only genuine Fender parts that Fender made the money on, same as they would a completed guitar, thus the name use is not actually defrauding Fender, form a profit standpoint.

I think you're going to extreme to make your point... yet, point taken.

There is no answer to this thread as any answers are subjective and therefore merely opinion.

Nit-picking won't change that. But it does seem that your opinion and my opinion aren't totally in-sync and that's OK. I do consider your opinion very carefully given your superior knowledge and time-in-grade !

cheers!

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'11 FSR Am. Vtg. Ltd. Ed. CAR '57 Stratocaster (SN# LE02639)
'14 American Deluxe Ash Stratocaster
'12 Telebration Empress Telecaster
'99 Deluxe Nashville Telecaster
'12 FSR Telecaster HH
'10 Heritage H-535
'99 Martin DC-1E
'13 Lanikai Tenor Ukulele

I don't believe I stated an opinion in this thread yet. I merely asked for clarification of the following:



and provided an example that encompasses both of your statements.

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Bill

I know we get into different aspects/gray areas when we start talking about replacing hardware or heavily modding an instrument. Again why I specified genuine, standard Fender parts.

So let me give a concrete example of one way it might go.

Assuming I actually can't get a body or neck direct from Fender, lets say I have a genuine body from one Jazz bass(yes, I'm a Jazz bass guy, so it's my example.) and a neck from another, but the logo is gone or badly damaged. I buy all the hardware and other components, all genuine Fender. I assemble it, but really don't like the missing or damaged logo. And assume that I am honest(because I am), and would never have any intentto misrepresent it as a factory original if I sold it. Should I feel bad about, or should/would Fender have a problem with, a Fender logo being put on it?

This example may not be EXACTLY like what we are discussing, but it's the closest likely scenario I can think of, considering my original criteria of Fender only parts.

You are really getting into an area that only Fender can address. Anything we say is pure speculation. Fender will replace damaged necks under warranty or not, but you must go through an authorized Fender service center. The service center will verify the provenance of your guitar and order a new neck from Fender. When the new neck arrives, the service center will replace your neck with the new neck and send the damaged neck back to Fender. You MUST surrender the old neck to Fender.

The point of this?

In both your scenario and mine, the serial number and build date of the neck will no longer match that of the original guitar. Is it still a Fender? In my case, I say "Yes". In your case, only Fender can say for sure.

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Bill

I know it's all speculation. Again , not trying to solve anything, or get anyone say anything definitive. Just a discussion and sharing of opinions.

I know Fender keeps pretty tight control over certain components, but especially the necks.

Technically, or should I say, legally, the answer would be "No" as far as deserving the "Fender" logo.
That's called copyright infringement. Fender has the sole right to manufacture Fender guitars. You can build a guitar from scratch using all Fender parts and products, but if it's not built at one of the Fender plants, and therefore doesn't warrant a Fender serial number, it's not a Fender.
There are companies that build copies such as Squier who manufacture copies that Fender has taken under their banner... and there are others such as Penco who were in business for all of 4 years ('74 to '78) who made really nice copies of Les Pauls, SG's, Telecasters, and Stratocasters... they got sued and disappeared. (I have a Penco SG... nice guitar ).
I build signs for a living and sometimes I build electric signs using all UL certified electrical components... but I'm not a UL certified shop and therefore can't get a UL inspector to put a UL sticker on a sign cabinet I've built even though all the parts are certified.
But if a ballast blows out or a light socket burns up in a UL certified sign cabinet that I didn't build, I can repair the sign... but the UL sticker doesn't get peeled off even though I've "modified" the sign with new replacement parts that might not be from the same manufacturer as the original parts.

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Elaborate more. What model/where were the changes made?

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1984 Squier Contemporary Stratocaster
1986 Peavey Envoy 110
1967 Kingston Acoustic

There's another small detail(actually not so small) that I have left out until now.
For such a build to be legit, with an official Fender decal(not a fake), and to get that decal, Fender would have to know and approve that use, would they not? I believe Fender keeps a tight reign on the decals themselves, and doesn't just hand them out for the asking. Please correct me if i am wrong on that.

The only way to get a real Fender headstock decal is through a Fender authorized service center or guitar tech/luthier. They will photograph the guitar in detail and and along with any supporting documentation (receipt, purchase order, etc.) send everything to Fender for verification. If approved, Fender will send the decal to the service person who will then install it on the guitar. Only then will you get the guitar back with the new decal.

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Bill