What, for having an opinion?

I agree with Gorgon, except for the money thing. The way I see it, it's called blues for a reason, music to play and listen to when your feeling blue, not music to play when your feeling like the greatest person in the world. Artists like EC and ZZ top may have been strongly influenced by it, sure. But if you ask me, they dont sound anywhere near 'blue'. Thats just an opinion, super kid, nothing to report me for

Really hard to explain what I'm trying to say here.....

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So if I understand correctly, it has nothing to do with geographic location or color of skin, it's 'feeling blue' that makes you qualified to play the blues? Like when Eric Clapton's son Conor died as the result of falling out a window, would that make someone feel 'blue'?

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Yes. People who say, 'you can only understand and play the blues if you're from the southern states in America' make me laugh. I think you may have misinterperated what Gorgon was saying. I'm not assuming that Eric's never ever felt blue or down in his entire life, just the majority of his songs don't sound blue in my ears.

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No, Gorgon, "Eliminator" is not a blues album, but that doesn't mean that Billy (not Bill) Gibbons isn't a legitimate blues player.

To say that would mean that John Lee Hooker isn't a legitimate bluesman because he sang on Pete Townsend's "The Iron Man" album...Or for that matter, he sang "Chill Out" on his own album of the same name--definitely not blues songs.

You seem to have a much narrower definition than I of what a blues player can be; that's ok, but don't poo-poo my definition, either.

I dislike "Traditionalists" in art because it limits not only what an artist can do but also who can be an artist. 

By traditionalist standards, there is no viable visual art outside of cave paintings--because that was what came first.

If we were to stick to "tradition," we'd all be banging rocks together for musical accompaniment. Imagine the arguments, "Limestone is the only way to go--granite sounds too bright!"
Or..."Darn these modern HomoSapiens with their drums and fifes! When I was a kid, we only had Rock-Clicking! That's what music is supposed to be!" (quote of an actual Neanderthal...or maybe I made that up, you decide).

By your definition, Muddy and T-Bone weren't bluesmen because they plugged in and changed what Charley Patton, Son House, Bessie Smith and Robert Johnson had done previously.

The "Father of the Blues", WC Handy couldn't be a bluesman by your definition, either, because he was a classically trained orchestra teacher from a respectable family, not some low-down barefoot sharecropper.

Likewise, Robert Cray, the architectural student, couldn't possibly be a bluesman...I mean, he studied architecture--c'mon!

Or if you just object to the drifting away from traditional sounds, we have to strike Pat Hare off the list, because he purposely distorted his guitar...likewise for Little Walter and his Demon Harmonica!

I'll agree that some people who play blues aren't actual "Bluesmen/women", but to ignore or negate their contributions to the artform is reckless and destructive. If it weren't for people like Clapton (of whose fame and fortune you seem either jealous or disdainful--I assume the former), Bloomfield, Green, Winter, Vaughan(s) and Iglauer, blues would have faded to be a quaint remembrance of bygone times, much like the Andrews Sisters or Hank Williams Sr.

Judging from threads where you disagreed with others previously, I assume you won't let this ride, but I doubt I'll answer any other suppositions or accusations. You don't seem to be open to any other opinion than your own.

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Screamin' Armadillos
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This thread started with poor choice of Titles asking people their 'definition' (read OPINION ) of the Blues.

As such, there are NO wrong answers, because answers are not what were asked for... only OPINIONS. Unfortunately, there are some who feel their opinion is more valid than others and seem to be pressing the point to some limit.

The actual definition of the Blues, as defined by the Harvard School of Music in their Dictionary of Music (also adopted and taught by the Julliard School of Music, Purdue Univ. School of Music and Northwestern Univ. School of Music, among others) is:

"The Blues is an American form of folk music related to jazz. It is based on a simple, repetitive, poetic-musical structure. The sound is based on the Blue Note..."

The Blues isn't called the Blues because some Slave or Slave decendent lamented about their lot in Life, it's because of the Blue Note, defined as:

"A slight drop of pitch on the third, seventh, and sometimes the fifth tone of the scale, common in blues and jazz. Also bent pitch."

Blacks didn't invent this... they adopted it from Work Songs overseers made them sing in the fields to create cadence. Blacks of the day were largely undeucated and the Blues was an easy form of Music to pickup. Also, many of them had the basics of this form down through the Gospel Music they were hearing and playing, also adopted from Work Songs as many of the Slaves didn't even speak a common language.

This genre does not belong exclusively to, Black people. Others are not excluded from it.

The act of being Blue actually was named after the Blues and the Blue Note, not the other way around, because this music best emulated the emotion people were having.

cheers!

The Full Harvard School of Music Definition of Blues:

The Blues is an American form of folk music related to jazz. It is based on a simple, repetitive, poetic-musical structure. The sound is based on the Blue Note, or a slight drop of pitch on the third, seventh, and sometimes the fifth tone of the scale. It is also known as a bent pitch. The Blues Scale is typically a diatonic major scale incorporating a lowered or bent 3rd, a lowered or bent 7th and sometimes a lowered or bent 5th to approximate melodic notes that originated in African work songs. Since the actual pitch is unavailable on a traditional keyboard instrument (piano, organ, etc.), the flatted note is often played or "crushed" against the natural pitch to approximate the blue note. Any improvisation in blues music is done using primarily the notes in the basic chords themselves and the addition of the blue notes.

One of the most well-know chord progressions in popular music of the 19th century and later is the 12-bar blues. Countless jazz and popular songs have been composed within the structure of this series or progression of chords. The basic blues progression uses 3 chords - the Tonic (I) or the chord that the song is centered on, the Dominant (V) or the chord based on the fifth step of the Tonic scale, and the Subdominant (IV) or the chord based on the fourth step of the Tonic scale.
In an example using the key of F major, the Tonic is F, the Dominant is C and the Subdominant is B-flat. There is a cadence starting in measure 9 going from the Dominant (V) to the Subdominant (IV) finally to the Tonic (I) in measure 11. There are many variations on this cadence and may be V-IV-I or V-I or II-V-I, etc.

General Elements of the 12-bar Blues progression:
1. The progression is 12 measures long.
2. The 5th measure is typically the Subdominant (IV chord), or the chord based
on the fourth step of the Tonic scale.
3. The 9th measure begins a cadence progressing to the Tonic (I chord).

A standard variation on the basic 12-bar blues progression is the Basie Blues chord progression, named after the Count Basie Band because of it's frequent use by this band. It is very similar to the standard 12-bar blues progression. General Elements of the Basie Blues progression:
1. The progression is 12 measure long.
2. The 5th measure is the Subdominant (IV chord), or the chord based on the
fourth step of the Tonic scale.
3. The 9th measure begins a cadence progressing to the Tonic (I chord).

Another variation on the basic blues chord progression is the 12-Bar Minor Blues chord progression with the minor tonality in place of major. There are strong similarities to the standard 12-bar blues progression.

General Elements of the 12-Bar Minor Blues chord progression:
1. The progression is 12 measures long.
2. The 5th measure is the Subdominant (iv chord), or the chord based on the
fourth step of the Tonic scale.
3. The 9th measure begins a cadence progressing to the Tonic (i chord).

Another variation on the basic 12-bar blues chord progression is the 8-Bar Blues chord progression with a shorter pattern of chords. It is derived from measures 1 to 3 and measures 8 to 12 of the Basie Blues chord progression.

Still another variation on the basic 12-bar blues progression is the 16-Bar Blues chord progression with an extended pattern of chords. There is the same basic chord structure as the 12-bar blues with measure 9 and 10 repeated three times.

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Then we agree there's no argument. It's when you have rock artists saying they're dyed in the wool bluesmen that it becomes hard to stomach.

Someone mentioned tears in heaven is a blues song. Oh dear! we have completely lost the plot with that one!!


Not at all, you agree with me. So as i said, there is no difference of opinion.

To me a bluesman is one of the original blues artists who i mentioned, because they were the roots of the music and had the life experiences and hardships that suffused the music with the depth of emotion that characterises it.

Now we have college educated spoilt middle class white guys saying they're playing the blues but who are almost completely divorced from the music and where it came from.

As i mentioned how many on here listen to RL Burnside? Most will go "who? what?" but he was far and away more the real deal than someof these imposters who claim to be the real deal and they're tormented with angst yet like to spend their time being so miserable and blue that they want to design custom made Ferrari's. That is self obsession right there.

I remember recently seeing an interview with a guy who sang for one of the big rock groups of the 60's and he said when all this blues stuff was taking off in London in the 60's it was so false! as i said before, well he said the same thing; some white guys born and bred in the Uk trying to come over all genuine at trying to emulate a black man from the delta who sang and played that way because that was his life. That was not the life experience of these musicians from the UK so it was not genuine. They were just copyists really.

You don't suddenly pick up a guitar, start playing a version of "Nobody Knows You When You're Down And Out" and suddenly you become a dyed in the wool bluesman.

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Luck won't do it and ignorance can't

George Van Eps.

Gorgon...dude, get over the Ferrari thing...Muddy, BB, and countless others bought Cadillacs back in the day, and in Muddy's case, just about a new one every year!!! And just because he was smart enough to make enough money with his "Blues" and RL Burnside hasn't misses the point entirely. No one here is telling you how to spend your money...so stop trying to pass judgement on how others are spending theirs!

And it is obvious to everyone but you, that you do think your opinion is better than others...get over yourself...you are taking life WAY too serious!

And I don't EVER remember Eric Clapton or any musician in ZZ Top saying they are "Bluesmen", others labeled them as such, they were INSPIRED by the Bluesman, they didn't say they were/are one. And let's face it, at least Clapton ALWAYS gave credit to the bluesmen that inspired him and ensured they got writing and music credits, to make sure they got the money that was due them when he covered one of thier tunes.

And just so we are clear here...you have obviously never listened to Eric Claptons' album "EC Was Here"...as that is a total blues album as ever recorded, but Clapton didn't say it was a Blues Album, I and a couple other million people do!

Take a chill pill dude!

T2

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I see your point, but that viewpoint ignores all the "happy" blues and "braggin' " blues songs out there...Songs like "Mannish Boy" or "Mama Talk To Your Daughter" or "Hootchie Coochie Man" or "Streamline Woman" or "Man Of Many Words" or "The Blues Had A Baby (And Named It Rock & Roll)"...some of those songs are "seduction" songs, too--trying to convince a woman that he's got what she needs...definitely not sad or depressed.

My very first post on this thread stated (in part) that blues music is related to an emotion...and I meant any kind of emotion--sad, happy, angry, sexy, melancholy, indignant, confident, peaceful...there's examples of all those types of (blues) songs throughout history.

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Screamin' Armadillos
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But all music is related to emotion, not just blues. People listen to classical music when they're down or folk music or country music or.....!

How can you define blues music like that?

Have you ever listened to the tango music of Astor Piazzolla?

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Are you sure?

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You're obviously only reading what you want to, in order to argue.

My original post said more than just "Emotion"--In this particular post, I was just pointing out that there are more than just "sad" blues songs. In my original post, I said blues "

Of course, there's also the musical technique and mechanics involved (related to whatever instrument the person is playing), but I never said that only musical style that involves emotion is blues. I agree with you-- all music is emotion (except maybe electronica)...but it doesn't matter what technique, instrument or notes are played, it isn't blues unless that "touch, feel, emotion, sensitivity and (for lack of a better term), "soul" ", is evident in the sound.

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Screamin' Armadillos
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perfect example of how blues does not have to be of a particular arrangement or form like 12 bar, or straight 1/4/5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_DOnKJ232M

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Yeah, because no blues ever came out of Louisiana (Buddy Guy) or North Mississippi (RL Burnside), or the Piedmont/Carolinas (too many to mention) or Chicago or Detroit or Memphis or Helena, Arkansas or...

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Screamin' Armadillos
Texas Roadhouse Music
Guitar/Slide Guitar/Harp/Vocals

I think that what Gorgon is trying to say is that the Delta blues players and the likes are Bluesmen...the originals. They are the ones who lived the lives that create our perception of the blues. Everyone else who has come along since are not bluesmen, they are blues players or blues influenced.

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That's it yodacaster and bang on the button. I don't understand how some people can't seem to understand that.

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Luck won't do it and ignorance can't

George Van Eps.