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Post subject: Music Law
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:17 am
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Ok guys let me set this up. I was playing with a band here reently, it was a band, not a singer and his band. We where recording some tunes that the lead singer had written. He then left the band, and paid for all the studio time him self. I know that i have no publshing writes to the songs, but he is using my plaiying and i got ro compensation, nor have i given him permission to use my playing. Do i have any legal rights? How can i get royalties, or can i legally make him give me copies of the stuff i plaid for me to mix and use for my press kit etc. Can i legally make him take off evry not i played and re do them, or can i just bill him for my time?


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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:43 am
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absolutly i would file a complaint now so it is on record also you are only intitled to money made from the recordings you contibuted to talk to an attorney but their only intrested if theres big bucks involved


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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:08 pm
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flamekaster, it sounds to me like you are probably out of luck. If you didn't book and pay for the sessions, then you are not entitled to anything that you didn't negotiate up front. Sorry, dude.

Just out of curiosity, is he selling the recordings? Or just using them as demos?

gratz - "File a complaint?" Where? The Better Business Bureau? The police? The Musician's Union? There's nobody to "file" this complaint with, dude.


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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:11 pm
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Gravity Jim wrote:
flamekaster, it sounds to me like you are probably out of luck. If you didn't book and pay for the sessions, then you are not entitled to anything that you didn't negotiate up front. Sorry, dude.

Just out of curiosity, is he selling the recordings? Or just using them as demos?

gratz - "File a complaint?" Where? The Better Business Bureau? The police? The Musician's Union? There's nobody to "file" this complaint with, dude.


They are selling boot leg copies of the stuff at shows. They have no record label. And i was afraid of that. Since we were a band at the time and were all suppose to pay for the studio time, i wasnst worried. If the song sales and starts getting air play and i entitled to any for of royalities


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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:20 pm
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flamekaster wrote:
They are selling boot leg copies of the stuff at shows. They have no record label. And i was afraid of that. Since we were a band at the time and were all suppose to pay for the studio time, i wasnst worried. If the song sales and starts getting air play and i entitled to any for of royalities


Well, that makes more questions. Let me explain a couple things first.

First, if the song got airplay, nobody would get any money for that but the songwriter and publisher. Performance rights organizations like ASCAP and BMI make those payments to the song's publisher, and they split the money with the songwriter(s). No airplay money for the guys who play on the record.

The guys in the band are supposed to make money from record amd merhcandise sales. Your reply says "they are selling the record." Is this "they" the rest of the band without you? Or the singer/songwriter without the band?

Either way, we're talking about pennies per copy, and it's pretty unlikely that this recoding is going to be a million-copy hit... they're just going to sell a couple hundred copies at bar gigs, am I right?


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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:23 pm
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Gravity Jim wrote:
flamekaster wrote:
They are selling boot leg copies of the stuff at shows. They have no record label. And i was afraid of that. Since we were a band at the time and were all suppose to pay for the studio time, i wasnst worried. If the song sales and starts getting air play and i entitled to any for of royalities


Well, that makes more questions. Let me explain a couple things first.

First, if the song got airplay, nobody would get any money for that but the songwriter and publisher. Performance rights organizations like ASCAP and BMI make those payments to the song's publisher, and they split the money with the songwriter(s). No airplay money for the guys who play on the record.

The guys in the band are supposed to make money from record amd merhcandise sales. Your reply says "they are selling the record." Is this "they" the rest of the band without you? Or the singer/songwriter without the band?

Either way, we're talking about pennies per copy, and it's pretty unlikely that this recoding is going to be a million-copy hit... they're just going to sell a couple hundred copies at bar gigs, am I right?


Right, some one had told me about royalties, but what you said is what i thought was right. I took a music law class in college but it has been to long ago. He (the singer) took the bass player, who i started the band with, and re grouped under a singer and his band thang


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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:31 pm
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I'm not sure how the royalties from sales would work for the bandmembers, but I know that mechanical royalties to the copyright owner is only 9.8c per sale or airplay as of last year. I'd imagine that you'd only be entitled to a portion of that 9.8c.

Personally, I doubt it's really worth it, as it's a short-run self production. Let's say he sold 1000 copies (not very likely for a defunct band). You'd be entitled to what, $25 max? That's assuming a 4-person band and all 1000 copies being sold rather than given away as a promotion. With giveaways and larger bands, you're probably looking at less that $20 off of a 1000 CD run.

Just not worth it.


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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:47 pm
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yitty79 wrote:
I'm not sure how the royalties from sales would work for the bandmembers, but I know that mechanical royalties to the copyright owner is only 9.8c per sale or airplay as of last year. I'd imagine that you'd only be entitled to a portion of that 9.8c.

Personally, I doubt it's really worth it, as it's a short-run self production. Let's say he sold 1000 copies (not very likely for a defunct band). You'd be entitled to what, $25 max? That's assuming a 4-person band and all 1000 copies being sold rather than given away as a promotion. With giveaways and larger bands, you're probably looking at less that $20 off of a 1000 CD run.

Just not worth it.


You're thinking of the per-song royalty paid to the publisher when someone covers the song under the automatic mechanical license, not the original recording....the artist's percentage on the original is negotiated, not fixed by law.

But you're still correct that a sideman's royalty on this recording would buy a week's worth of lunches at Burger King.


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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:05 pm
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Even though you have no written contract, you may be entitled to compensation under a theory of contract law called "unjust enrichment." It's recognized in most states. Essentially, you provided a service for which you reasonably expected to be paid or share in any proceeds. He has taken and used your efforts without compensation, and he owes you. You don't have to call the White House but just need to get a lawyer who will file suit in civil court for breach of contract. You can also go to small claims court without a lawyer, if the amount is under the limit for small claims in your area. Check out small claims for your county on the internet and find out how to make a claim there.


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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:49 pm
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Yeah, call a lawyer and tell him that some local band owes you 25 bucks due to "unjust enrichment." (That's $25 if they sell a thousand copies of their little CD, and if the copyright laws don't negate your claim, and if the value of your contribution can even be figured, especially in light of standard defenses against unjust enrichment that would reduce your claim, and if you don't have to show that not only was the singer enriched but that you were also somehow impoverished.)

After he stops killing himself laughing, you can file in small claims court on your own. If you win, you'll still get nothing, because the county sheriff isn't going to drag your singer pal off to jail over this.

THis is a standard local band story, told a thousand times this year. Just let it ride.

On the other hand, if you're serious about the money, if you really think your band has a shot at making any, then don't start the band without doing some paperwork. You'd never go into a business partnership without a contract, right? Well, that's what a professional band is.


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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:24 pm
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Last edited by tinker tech on Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:31 pm
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I wouldnt call an attorney, most of them charge ya 35-50 bucks to even talk to them

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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:32 pm
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tinker tech wrote:
Gravity Jim is right - if it aint on paper it did not happen. I've been through the old he said she said routine. If you go to court it helps to have legal documentation.


jim answered my question, which was what i thougth it was, a few posts back. SO thanks every one. i am done with this thread. I am just furustrated, becuase i am alot better than the singer, who is playing lead guitar now. And i put alot of sweat into those songs and it jsut made me mad, that i waisted my time, when i get paying studio gigs here as i want to.


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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:14 pm
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You could regard it as a good lesson, albeit possibly an expensive one but still, somewhat practical. In the future, you'll definately remember this little endeavor and not make the same mistake twice. Welcome to the School of Hard Knocks.

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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:36 pm
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Warpfield wrote:
You could regard it as a good lesson, albeit possibly an expensive one but still, somewhat practical. In the future, you'll definately remember this little endeavor and not make the same mistake twice. Welcome to the School of Hard Knocks.


i have been in the school of hard knocks for along time. That is just why i do the "hired Gun" thig most of the time instead of putting my own thing together


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