My 0.2¢ worth.
(I declare an interest here: I've just replied to a Toppscore post - and only then discovered he'd been banned!)

May I begin with these two points: I understand the decision to ban TS (I'd say Beemer's position is closest to my own) but applaud Gorgon's generosity of spirit in regretting that decision.

I think the reasons for what's keeping this thread going are two-fold.

First, different on-line communities develop their own internal rules of behaviour differently. A friend of mine (a Professor of Law at London University) is currently researching how these develop. I think his observations (quoted below) are relevant here, because I think differences in how they develop reinforce my second point...

...Which is: Second, we're used to much more robust discourse on this side of the Atlantic: just tune into Prime Minister's questions on C-SPAN and you'll see what I mean. And we're meek and mild here England, compared to our Caledonian cousins North of the border (I'm using humour here to make a serious point... ).

My friend's remarks are on rules of etiquette developed on the UK-based Ukulele Cosmos compared with those established on the US-based Ukulele Underground (to be sure, both fora/forums have international reach - I'm on both -, but the bulk of their membership derives from their national base).

(emphasis added).

Similarly, this forum is a community whose members rarely know each other personally, but are linked only by enthusiasm for Fender products. Both here and on the Ukulele Underground, status is gained, explicitly, in the number of posts made, not in wisdom imparted, or in social interaction engaged in. So if you're of the school that believes it's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it and be proved wrong, you're going to be a long time moving up that scale (clearly, in this regard TS's optimism as to his abilities got the better of his judgment).

And of course, not knowing each other personally makes disputation a much trickier process than in everyday discourse, where I'd have no problem in telling a friend of mine to go forth and multiply in jerky backward movements if I thought s/he'd said something ridiculous. Similarly, on the Ukulele Cosmos, where I've met, played alongside and shared a drink with about 25% of the membership, I'd have a lot less compunction about making my point in a far more forceful manner than I would here, where I think I've still made less than twenty posts.

Given all that, it seems pretty clear to me that Gorgon's position derives from his experience of behaviour/rules of etiquette aquired in UK forums/fora. Equally, I can feel RetroVerbial's exasperation. That's the usual outcome when people are talking past each other, while imagining that both share the same expectations about 'proper' behaviour. But remember we've had thousands of years to develop rules of etiquette in social interaction, and we all know how different those rules can be in different parts of the world. We've only had about 20 years of bulletin boards.

Just hoping that this 0.2¢ worth helps in moving the debate on. If not, my shoulders are broad

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2001 Princeton 65 Dyna-Touch™ SS Amplifier
2008 American Standard Telecaster Natural Ash
2009 American Special Stratocaster 2-Tone Sunburst
2012 Fender® Baseball

Well, fifteen pages into this astonishing thread I'm finally going to dip my toe in the water.

Hi redpaul1: in the friendliest possible tone I'm going to politely disagree with you, so far as an Atlantic split is concerned. Though this is the only forum I'm a member of I look at a few others and I see both well mannered and eye-wateringly rude ones both sides of the ocean. In person, I know rude and abrupt people either side of the pond and likewise mannerly and peaceable ones. I don't think any of this has to do with geography.

I think a good analogy is with bars. There are noisy bars full of shouting and bad language; you can tell them a block away and if you don't like it you don't enter. And there are restrained bars with friends and strangers alike enjoying a quiet drink and civilised conversation. If someone goes into one of those and starts yelling his head off the manager first asks him to tone it down and if he won't shows him the door.

That's what happened to Toppscore.

The internet is full of forums he and like minded folks can go and scream insults at each other: since the beginning Fender and its Forum Users have decided this isn't one of them.

It so happens I have met several of this Forum's users on both sides of the Atlantic and it has been nice to discover that so far to a man they have been in real life of above average intelligence and above average social skills: polite, friendly and lots of fun to spend time with. Down the far end of copper wires and airwaves we're all nevertheless real people here with manners and feelings, and we are capable of behaving to one another online as we would face to face.

It's more productive and simply nicer that way.

This Forum user in sunny South London likes the way Brad runs the show.

Cheers - C

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well Ceri I was going to attempt to say the exact same thing but you stole my thunder
You did say it MUCH better than I would have though

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^^ Redpaul1 ...... Yes and NO ....When In Rome do as the Romans.....

What is or may be acceptable in another Forum is not here, One may feel that day's old Half-eaten pizza's and half guzzled beer bottles and cigarettes left for day's may be appropriate in their house, but it is not in mine and neither is it in my friend's abode's.
Thus that kind of behavior would get you booted out the door. It's a simple equation, these are the appropriate standards to be productive member here, Toppscore's redundant silliness wasn't.

Oh and by The Way... I have lived on both sides of the Atlantic and the social expectations are similar in both.... Your premise that it is OK to do as one is used to in someone else's house is ludicrous.....
You might want to stop lurking and actually join in some of the discussions here a bit more often to get a clear picture of the Status Quo...

G-Day

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"C'est parti mon Kiki "

Haha! [Ceri gives a friendly bow to somebizarredude.]

Hey, one more thing, though. Half of me thinks it is utterly insane that we need to spend 15 pages (and counting) on this tiny issue. But the other half thinks it's just great that Fender Forum users want to discuss and think hard about any rights and wrongs of this event, and hammer the thing out. I believe that speaks well of us all - people here are definitely not a pitchfork wielding mob of witch hunters, as suggested earlier on the thread.

Kudos to us all, Fender Forum Users!

Cheers - C

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Ah, well said Ceri.
Because this Mob talk and Old Boys Club thing was getting sour.

Actually, I don´t think the thread is about ToppScore. It is about the rest of us.
And I do enjoy all the human and personal content besides the obvious
Musical interest that draws us here. I don´t belong to any other Forum so I
come here for all my needs, both technical and beyond!

By the way guys and gals, I am still wondering about the difference between
Fender Jumbo Frets and the Dunlop 6105 Frets. Which are bigger?

Ps, Hey Ceri, have you posted yet on this year´s violin workshop experience?
I was thinking maybe I missed out.

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FIGHT!

No that's wrong i'm afraid. i asked him for advice about a caps issue in an amp and was met with the sage advice of did i know what side was the positive end and what end was the negative end?

Not only was that an idiotic comment it was demeaning and rude. Much like the way he put Toppscore down with his cheeky and moronic Einstein comment.


I'm not rushing to only Toppscore's defence; i'm defending anyone who gets ganged up on and reported sneakily in order to get a moderator of a site to ban them.

Let's get it straight; he never swore at anyone, never threatened anyone, never put anyone's religion down. So what do we have left? he posted some stupid advice and annoyed someone? That's not reason enough to be put off a forum. That being the case loads of people should get booted off this forum. That is unreasonable.

Far too many people wanted to dob the guy in instead of saying "just don't converse with him" that's all it would have taken and the problem's solved.

As far as the thread being a waste of time; that's your opinion. On the other hand i think it's relevant and important as it gives us an insight into the mob mentality at work here and also gives us a rare and close up view of people's insecurities. Basically the psychology of it is that by them being a member of a group that demonises another member, it gives them a feeling of importance and self validation and boosts their feelings of self worth or vanity. All the while feeling sickeningly smug at being a member of a group that is picking on one person.

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Luck won't do it and ignorance can't

George Van Eps.

You just can,t stand being wrong can you. You sure have alot of opinions about people you don,t know. That ashame because you might be a nice guy and mean well. But it takes all kinds. Society has rules to live by and when you can,t abide by them you get banned. Its what make the world go round. Have a nice day

I'm perfectly willing to admit when i'm wrong. For instance; i was wrong about Hou-Tex and he reached out and is a good reasonable guy.

I just don't like to see people banned from forums. As i said i'm a member of another forum and people argue and it can get heated and the sparks fly but no one ever gets banned. I can assure you it's a lot more heated than anything i've ever read on the fender site.

To me it just smacks of people getting too worked up over nothing. There are always going to be these issues around forums. Wherever you get members of the public gathered in one area there's gonna be arguing and disagreements, that's just human nature. To try to cut that off and suppress it isn't a good idea imo.

But lets get it straight: if someone is swearing at someone and calling them this that and the next thing, or being threatening, then yes in those circumstances a ban would be appropriate.

I didn't see Toppscore do anything like that though.

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Luck won't do it and ignorance can't

George Van Eps.

Brad doesn't push the eject button too often, so if he saw fit to do so in this case, there has to be greater cause than we can see from a few threads that degraded into (ridiculous and annoying) Urination Contests (often started by Toppscore's inability to absorb or accept correction or disagreement).

It has been stated that the individual in question had some pretty intense things to say in some PM (personal message) interactions, including PMs/reports to Mr. Traweek. I know of one other individual that was banned due to inappropriate language and behavior (or behaviour for our members in Brittania), perhaps the reason for removal was more related to those incidences than what we can in the general public can see.

Brad has allowed many (ahem) Unique Individuals with somewhat prickly/strange/annoying personalities retain their membership here (sometimes much longer than most of us would have tolerated if we were in his position) so there is undoubtedly more to the situation.

The fact that Brad has not locked this thread shows a great deal of integrity on his part--he's allowing criticism of his decision and actions, instead of shutting it down at the first sign of dissent.

Defend or demonize the recently removed Forum member if you like, but leave any criticism of Brad out of it.

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Good Vibes To Y'all!



Screamin' Armadillos
Texas Roadhouse Music
Guitar/Slide Guitar/Harp/Vocals

I believe everyone who wanted to have a say has already done so.
Hashing it out this long was excruciating but going even longer is pointless ot the point of stupidity.
What's that Einstein quote about repeating the same thing over and over and expecting something to change?
Can we please get out of this place now?
Can we please get back to tech talk, jokes and friendly banter?

Thank you!!

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Just think of how awesome a guitar player you could have been by now if you had only spent the last 10 years practicing instead of obsessing over pickups and roasted maple necks.

well i see one good thing that came from this.... we have a new name for being banned.

Toppscored!!!!

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I too have lived on both sides of the Atlantic and to be clear, I did suggest that transatlantic differences could reinforce the other and more important dynamic - that one being that the dispersed nature of this forum's membership demands much more care in making one's care when making one's point than one in which a large percentage know each other personally.

I also thought I'd made it clear right off the bat that I understood the reasons for TS's exclusion. What piqued my interest is what has piqued the interest of others, namely how come this discussion's gone on for 15 pages. I was just offering some thoughts as to why this might be.

As to lurking, if I felt I had something to useful to contribute to other discussions, I certainly would. As I made it clear in my introduction to the forum, and in my self-assessment as hobbyist, guitar is not my main instrument, much as I love my Tele and my Strat. http://www.fender.com/community/forums/posting.php?mode=quote&f=2&p=884161 I spend most of my time on this forum soaking up information and expertise. Some day, I hope I'll have soaked up enough to start joining in guitar and amp-related discussions in an informed and useful manner.

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2001 Princeton 65 Dyna-Touch™ SS Amplifier
2008 American Standard Telecaster Natural Ash
2009 American Special Stratocaster 2-Tone Sunburst
2012 Fender® Baseball

Theres no better way to learn than to jump right in.

I agree, its cold at first but once the initial shock wares off your in

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