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Post subject: Here's Your Ashtray...
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:42 pm
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Here's your ashtray...

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Post subject: Re: i want an ashtray
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:39 pm
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O.K., lets look at this from a different way. Why di Leo Fender put ashtrays and pup covers on in the first place? Shielding? Some place to secure the foam they all had in the ashtrays back in the day?

Probably have to get Brother Dave involved.


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Post subject: Re: i want an ashtray
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:58 am
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They were to hide the working parts purely for aesthetic reasons. This was common in the 50s.


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Post subject: Re: i want an ashtray
Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:24 pm
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boxbang wrote:
Gorgon wrote:
You can't palm mute the strings if you have that on :shock:

YOU can't.
Many can't.
Some can.
I can.
I do. :lol:


I do too, however, I'm having trouble keeping the ash tray on while I get at my strat with any serious action.
I'm currently using poster sticky tack under the ash tray where it meets the 6 & 1 E saddles with marginal success. I didn't want to crimp the thing down and muck up beyond use...

How about you, Boxbang or any others - any tips to keep the ash tray on?

...also, my first post to the forum so, uh, Hi everyone.


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Post subject: Re: i want an ashtray
Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:09 pm
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boxbang wrote:
Gorgon wrote:
You can't palm mute the strings if you have that on :shock:

YOU can't.
Many can't.
Some can.
I can.
I do. :lol:

You can't, at least not in the make it sound good sense. You can mute anything by just resting your hand on it, but to mute properly you have to have the side of your palm muting the strings exactly where they come off the bridge. How can you do that when you have a plate covering that point and a bit forward of that too?

Why do you think no one likes the things?

:lol:

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Post subject: Re: i want an ashtray
Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:48 pm
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While I was vascilating about putting covers on permanently, I used velcro. That way they came off easily and the adhesive didn't hurt the finish.


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Post subject: Re: i want an ashtray
Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:49 pm
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Gorgon wrote:
I don't like those covers, they look kinda dorky :lol: the only person who was a pro that i can think of who kept the cover on was Albert Collins. You can't palm mute the strings if you have that on :shock:


James Jamerson kept his on.


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Post subject: Re: i want an ashtray
Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:10 pm
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Some of us have come to realize that a player who has mastered his craft can play with, and through, anything. As well as Mr. Jamerson, whose bass was unplayable to anyone else because of the warped neck, and Jaco's "Bass Of Doom", which he abused, this sows what can be done when someone is talented.


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Post subject: Re: i want an ashtray
Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:12 pm
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Speaking from experience on BASSES, not guitars. Covers were used on Fender basses for beauty, protection, muting and shielding on the 51 through 56 P-Basses.

Fender thought they looked better with the covers. Some people still do. Others hate them. It is sort of like the old question about which is the better bass, a J or a P. There are two schools of thought and some validity to both camps.

On the 51-56 Precisions the single coil pickups are a bare exposed device made up of many pieces and not exactly a thing of beauty. Lack of any cover on them exposes the top flatwork of the pickup to damage through normal use. A sharp quick tug or prolonged lateral pressure (such as using the top of the flatwork for a thumbrest) can actually pull the top flatwork off, breaking the pickup apart so that the top flatwork pulls free, the pickup poles fall out and the pickup is destroyed. Likewise over aggressive play can cause a string to catch under the top flatwork and the string then works like a lever to pop the top flatwork off with the same result. On 51-56 basses I don't consider a pickup cover to be optional, it is essential to protect the pickup.

The PICKUP cover on the original 51 P-Bass was also actually grounded to the electronic ground. This was quickly discontinued as being too labor intensive for the slight shielding benefit gain. While there was a slight gain in RFI rejection the extra time and 1.5 cents worth of wire taken to do it was considered a cost that could be eliminated. They still had RFI issues even with this extra grounding. These single coil basses, like all single coil pickups, are very sensitive to RFI. RFI sensitivity is in fact the main problem with them. I work around the RFI the best I can with shielding because I think a single coil bass pickup is the best passive sounding bass pickup. (Just my opinion and not looking for a debate. Tone you get used to is the tone you seek and so on.)

Fender found that by covering the bridge single coil pickup on early Fender electric Spanish guitars (Telecaster & Esquire models) it significantly reduced RFI sensitivity making them more usable. These metal covers over the bridge also covered the bridge pickup which was integrally mounted to the bridge and thus by contact the covers were grounded which provided an additional level of shielding. On the P-Bass pickup cover (the real 51), in order to duplicate this benefit and ground the cover Fender ran a wire from ground on the pickup to a ring terminal which went under the pickup cover screw. I still do that same thing on my 51 RI's and 54 parts bass but solder it instead to the copper tape shielding in the pickup cavity which runs by separate wire to control cavity shielding and then to the volume control ground, instead of to the pickup terminal as on the real 51.

Since there is no pickup near the bridge on a first or second generation P-Bass, as on the Telecaster & Esquire guitars, a bridge cover on the P-Bass serves the beauty, muting concealment/mounting and protection functions. There really is no perceptible shielding benefit.

With the split coil P-Bass pickup in 1957 RFI overnight became a nearly insignificant issue and electronically the pickup covers were not as big a shielding benefit. Also since it was totally encased in plastic the pickup now had it's own integral protection so you couldn't literally tear the pickup apart by accident with mere prolonged finger pressure. You can use 2nd generation split coil P-Bass pickup cover for a thumbrest for decades with no worries. Due to traditional cosmetic expectations P-Basses still came with pickup covers installed way into the CBS era to give a balanced look to the bridge cover. Yes there was a slight improvement in RFI rejection, but not as substantial as to say it was a solid benefit one didn't want to do without.

So far as bridge covers on a P-Bass, other than hiding the bridge they really only provide muting and protection. The protection role is obviously to prevent bumps to the bridge which can bend or break the tiny screws. Also if you've ever walked past an exposed bass bridge and had your clothing snag on the bridge height screws and start dragging the instrument across the floor you'll recognize the benefit of this protective function of a bridge cover. Muting was still mounted to the underside of the bridge cover most years on most models of Fender basses which came with covers. Reissue covers do not have this muting, which on vintage ones was precisely a piece of window weatherstripping from Sears Roebuck & Co the width of the cover that is stuck to the underside of the bridge and presses down on the strings.

Speaking of Jazz Basses, they use single coil pickups and the shielding benefit of the covers is far more substantial on a Jazz than on a split coil P-Bass. Removing the covers from a P-Bass makes much less difference in RFI rejection than it does on a single coil Jazz. Modern noiseless variety, split coil and stacked coil Jazz pickups diminish this shielding benefit much like a split coil pickup did on the P-Bass.

The downside to a pickup cover is that it prevents you from playing directly over the pickup. For many bassists that is where their favored tones live. So these players have to make a decision about whether or not the covers get in the way enough to justify removing them. For some players in the old days the muting in the bridge cover was a hindrance to getting sustain, for others the muting was exactly what they wanted.

The main impact of a bridge cover on a vintage P-Bass was the muting, which is why many players who wanted more sustain removed them. On the Jazz which has a huge bridge cover, it also covers the bridge pickup and again you can't play over that pickup, which is where precisely where some players like to play. Some players who removed the bridge cover adapted to a palm or more precisely a "heel of the hand" muting technique when muting was required.

The downsides to covers on a Fender bass in general are that they are RESTRICTIVE in where a bassist can play, and it can slow you down in changing playing locations to achieve changes in tonal effects. Secondly covers complicate string changes and adjustments in that the covers need to be removed anytime a pickup height or a bridge adjustment is needed. It is about impossible to do a string change without removing at least the bridge cover. If you are that bassist who changes your strings weekly, leaving the bridge cover off is sensible.

A large part of whether or not to use covers is personal preference. Also they add some mass to the instrument and slightly more weight. Changes in mass come into play concerning dead spots on the neck. If you have a dead spot, adding mass can move it out of the range of play. Since covers add a bit of mass they can impact the location of dead spots on the neck. Sometimes adding covers will help with dead spots and sometimes it isn't enough extra mass close enough to the neck to matter.

Some very prominent split coil 2nd generation Precision players played with a bridge cover but no pickup cover. I think that is sensible and practical to do unless you are doing weekly string changes. If you don't like the muting, pull out the weather stripping and put the bridge cover back on. It won't hurt a thing. The 2nd generation P-Bass bridge cover is really small and doesn't get in the way for me at all. It also hides the spongy foam I shove in there under the strings for a while after a string change. I use the pickup cover because I like the balanced look with the bridge cover. Yes the pickup cover gets in the way sometimes but I work around it.

On a single coil Jazz or any single coil P-Bass I find pickup covers are much more beneficial and on a single coil P-Bass again they are essential to me.

James Jamerson once commented he left both his covers on because "Leo Fender put them there for a reason." Your mileage may vary. Plus taxes and balancing. I respect both schools of thought on the covers. Personal preference isn't worth arguing over any more than what string set to use.

Finally, for emphasis repeating regarding the single coil P-Bass. If you choose to NOT use a pickup cover just be aware and cautious regarding the fragility of the pickup. I think you can safely play it so long as you don't use the pickup as a thumbrest or catch a string under the top flatwork by over-playing. The real problem comes in on these when you LOAN it to another bassist who is accustomed to using the pickup as a thumbrest from their previous experience with a second generation split coil P-Bass and then there is a chance you will get your bass back with a busted pickup. I've seen this exact thing happen TWICE to different people with these instruments who loaned it out. DO NOT LOAN OUT your first generation 51/56 type P-Bass without a pickup cover on it. Instruct the borrower to not remove the cover under any circumstances. Don't even let anyone "try it out" without a pickup cover. Many will immediately put their thumb on the top flatwork of pickup and start slapping away. It does take quite a bit of upward force to destroy one but a little force over a long period of time can have the same result.


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Post subject: Re: i want an ashtray
Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:49 pm
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Gorgon wrote:
boxbang wrote:
Gorgon wrote:
You can't palm mute the strings if you have that on :shock:

YOU can't.
Many can't.
Some can.
I can.
I do. :lol:

You can't, at least not in the make it sound good sense. You can mute anything by just resting your hand on it, but to mute properly you have to have the side of your palm muting the strings exactly where they come off the bridge. How can you do that when you have a plate covering that point and a bit forward of that too?

Why do you think no one likes the things?

:lol:


If you are talking about notes and chords being cut short or unwanted strings in the chord being deadened by use of the edge of the palm at the bridge, then I still maintain it can be done in other ways. I do it mostly subconsciously with both hands. My strumming/plucking hand is nowhere near the bridge. Maybe I picked it up from playing resonators which have bridge covers that can't be removed.
Anyway the ashtray covers look good to me. They fall off, so I usually don't bother.
Goodonya ...Mark.


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Post subject: Re: i want an ashtray
Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:45 pm
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The strat ashtray cover does not fit the Fender standard (mim) stratocaster.


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Post subject: Re: i want an ashtray
Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:33 am
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Minnesotastrats wrote:
The strat ashtray cover does not fit the Fender standard (mim) stratocaster.


Do you know of any that will? I want one for my MIM Strat.


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Post subject: Re: i want an ashtray
Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:02 am
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I want to be taller, thinner and have a full head of blond hair. That ain't happening either.


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Post subject: Re: i want an ashtray
Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:28 am
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oxfan wrote:
At times threads like these evolve. The subject went awry when the bass ashtrays came into view. I'm going to order an ashtray for my Strat shortly.


Ox is up on the ashtrays. He did a top flight installation on his Jazz, and Precision. When you do your shorty, lots of pics so they see a good install job. Maybe relay to everyone how you installed it also. Image

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Post subject: Re: i want an ashtray
Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:17 pm
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Minnesotastrats wrote:
I want to be taller, thinner and have a full head of blond hair. That ain't happening either.


I just wish I had hair.


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